Jack Dempsey vs Today's Heavyweights

[robertzimmerman]

WTF Huck,

I'm not doubting that Dempsey could beat much bigger men than himself. That's on record. I'm dis*****g that he'd have a chance against the top big men of today, who are considerably more athletic and/or skilled than the big men of old.

That's your opinion. But in my opinion, he would definitely have had A CHANCE. Fair enough, today's SHW's could be better than the ones from Dempsey's era. But it still comes down to a clash of styles. Until guys like Joshua and Wilder show me more, I'm not going to change my mind.

SHWs in Dempsey's time were relatively rare, so there was a smaller statistical pool from which a potentially great SHW fighter could emerge. So far as I can see there were none.

Someone like Willard wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the division today, I imagine.

No arguments here.

I absolutely think modern LHWs have comparable power to Dempsey. Kovalev, Stevenson and especially Gvozdyk and Beterbiev have brutal lights out power. And this is with modern gloves, which have to be taken into account. The hardest punching Cruiserweights have superior power.

I respect your opinion.

They might not necessarily do well at heavyweight due to their styles, but there's no guarantee Dempsey would find much success with his style either. He wasn't anywhere nearly as jerky jerky with it as Tyson was, nor as explosive. And Tyson got hit plenty even when he used it at its best.

No, there's no guarantee, but I think he'd have had SOME SUCCESS.

[robertzimmerman]

juggernaut666,

You claim you are EDUCATING everyone here ,all i see is you ignoring all realistic points and coming back around with far fetched ones of your own . Firpo who was unrefined 215 pounder knocked Demspey out of the ring and you are questioning Wilders and Joshua abilities bc they havent SHOWED you anything yet ?

No. I realise that Joshua and Wilder both possess enough power to have knocked out Dempsey, had they have had the opportunity. Yes, until I've seen more from them, I won't agree that Dempsey wouldn't have had a chance to have beaten them. It's okay to note their size, but they don't appear to have the abilities of guys like Lennox and Vitali.

Basically:

You think it would have been a forgone conclusion to the disparity in size, whereas although I can acknowledge that, as yet, I've not been impressed by Wilder.

So let me get this straight , Joshua at 6'6 245 who has refined skills to that of BETTER abilities of a modern super heavyweight (yes they are trained better today ,i know its hard for nostalgics to believe ) is going to be an underdog vs a 190 Demspey ?

Where did I say he'd be an underdog?

Are they trained better today?

In my opinion, although Joshua has a great physique, I actually think he's too big. I think he'd benefit by dropping down in weight. His body is currently carrying around an awful lot of mass. I can see him gassing in a tough 12 round fight.

You used Frazier as an 200 pound example bc he beat Ali ? Frazier was nearly TKO'd by cruierweight Bonevena in the second rnd bc Bonevena THEN was considered a power puncher ,using Ali is not even relevant here bc Frazier didnt fight power punchers and when he did you saw the results (Foreman)

I used Joe as an example to illustrate that the right blend of skills and style can overcome disparities in size.

Using modern guys at 6'4 230 who were power punchers (Sanders ) to somehow show Demspey could win off of ONE Wlad fight is illogical and he was a southpaw too. In what context does a guy 3 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier ,different style etc have to do with Demspeys chances with Wlad ?

I've never even mentioned Dempsey vs Wlad in any detail. As above, Sanders was listed as an example to illustrate that a smaller man can overcome disparities in size.

You guys scoff at the notion that a guy like Louis could have beaten a guy like Wlad, even though he wasn't much smaller than a guy like Sanders.

Demspey was an unrefined Mike Tyson like style ,MUCH EASIER to hit , needed to clinch and hit to maintain fight control and his legendary status is suped up bc he beat Jess Willard years out of retirement and NO WHERE near refined big man ( Fighting tall,utilizing distance ,better jabbing ,tighter defense ,footwork ,etc )

In my opinion, Mike was a better fighter when he fought to his full capabilities. But once again: Mike is a perfect example of skills and style overcoming size.

Demspey was the first to introduce better utilisation of variety combos of head to body but lets come back down to earth , a guy like Joshua wwho is an elite athlete ,fast and aggressive with tigyt counter punching abilities to use if he wants would crush Demspeys come forward mauling style ,end of !

There is no: "End of"

You've no idea how he would have handled that style.

"Willie Meehan was an extraordinary fighter, who fought in every weight division from flyweight to heavyweight, against some of the greatest fighters of his era.* Meehan was one of the great characters of the ring, who spurned the idea of training, and special diets. His rise in weight wasn’t due to an increase in muscle, but an incongruous increase in his waistline. By the time Willie had grown into a heavyweight of about 190 pounds, his 5’ ft.* 9”in.* body was portly in the extreme.

His physique resembled an early Tony Galento (with hair) but, rather than being a bar room brawler, type of slugger like Galento, Meehan was a clever and tricky boxer. He had speed that belied his build, and a huge collection of tricks with which to befuddle and exasperate his opponents.* "

A guy like Meehan not just short and no power gave Demspey problems but you are trying to sell he walks through modern era guys ? On what planet ?

Willie Meehan just highlights the old adage:

"Styles make fights"

Doug Jones gave Ali a hard fight, yet Ali went on to beat Foreman.

Where have I said that Dempsey walks through the modern era?

Why are you making things up?

This entire thread is beating a dead horse , i can go on forever with this it really wouldn't matter . Demspey is like a comic book super hero and that for many overrides logic , i can write a entire book on how boxing has changed and how heavy weights have changed from the 1900 to 2000's but guys like you would just read a old newspaper clipping from 1920's some reporter saying how Demspey was the best ever and go with that even though it wouldn't be logical !

More ignorant nonsense.

All I've said is that Dempsey would have had a chance to beat some of today's guys, and it's ignorant to say he wouldn't have just based on a disparity in size.

[LoadedWraps]

Stop talking nonsense.

Just go and watch some footage.

There's nothing to debate.

Fury is not faster than Dempsey was.

Stop being ******.

Fury would box circles around him, literally. Fury would do to Dempsey what Floyd did to JMM.

It would be one world class atg against another, but one will just be levels above his opponent.

[robertzimmerman]

Fury would box circles around him, literally. Fury would do to Dempsey what Floyd did to JMM.

It would be one world class atg against another, but one will just be levels above his opponent. [/COLOR][/FONT]

That could possibly have happened. But I don't care about your opinion with regards to a fight. My only issue was you saying that Tyson was faster, when that's clearly not the case.

[Fury4daWIN]

That's your opinion. But in my opinion, he would definitely have had A CHANCE. Fair enough, today's SHW's could be better than the ones from Dempsey's era. But it still comes down to a clash of styles. Until guys like Joshua and Wilder show me more, I'm not going to change my mind.

I'm not big on either guy and agree that they're both untested. But with Joshua at least I think it's pretty obvious that he'd destroy a man of Dempsey's dimensions. More so than to think the opposite. That's based on the eye test and a mental simulation of what a fight between the two would look like as well as a consideration of the vast difference in natural size and strength.

With Wilder it's a bit harder to say. Wilder is incredibly reckless and defensively poor, and has been rocked and hurt by smaller fighters before in the ams. He's also not really a SHW so much as a lanky normal sized heavyweight. Still considerably heavier than Dempsey, but not by such a freakish amount. I'd give Dempsey a chance there, but then I'd give lots of fighters a chance to dethrone Wilder. He's a very vulnerable fighter who consistently seems to struggle against guys whom on paper he should easily destroy.

[robertzimmerman]

I'm not big on either guy and agree that they're both untested. But with Joshua at least I think it's pretty obvious that he'd destroy a man of Dempsey's dimensions. More so than to think the opposite. That's based on the eye test and a mental simulation of what a fight between the two would look like as well as a consideration of the vast difference in natural size and strength.

With Wilder it's a bit harder to say. Wilder is incredibly reckless and defensively poor, and has been rocked and hurt by smaller fighters before in the ams. He's also not really a SHW so much as a lanky normal sized heavyweight. Still considerably heavier than Dempsey, but not by such a freakish amount. I'd give Dempsey a chance there, but then I'd give lots of fighters a chance to dethrone Wilder. He's a very vulnerable fighter who consistently seems to struggle against guys whom on paper he should easily destroy.

Regarding Joshua, It's not obvious to me at all, but I respect your opinion.

Regarding Wilder, I agree with what you've written.


What do you think regarding Wlad vs Joshua?

I'm really surprised that Wlad didn't want a fight beforehand.

[Fury4daWIN]

Regarding Joshua, It's not obvious to me at all, but I respect your opinion.

Regarding Wilder, I agree with what you've written.


What do you think regarding Wlad vs Joshua?

I'm really surprised that Wlad didn't want a fight beforehand.

I don't know. Too many question marks around both fighters at the moment.

Leaning towards Joshua at the moment as I feel he's got the momentum on his side.

[Kigali]

Fury would box circles around him, literally. Fury would do to Dempsey what Floyd did to JMM.

It would be one world class atg against another, but one will just be levels above his opponent. [/COLOR][/FONT]

Fury doesn't have the heart or stamina to box circles around Demsey mush less keep him off him.

Dempsey was always in shape and won't stop throwing....and he KNEW HOW TO GET INSIDE and what to do when he got there.

The big guys in Jack's day were a lot tougher than they are today....they threw lots more punches and could TAKE a punch better than today's big men.

[robertzimmerman]

I don't know. Too many question marks around both fighters at the moment.

Leaning towards Joshua at the moment as I feel he's got the momentum on his side.

That's how I see it.

Wlad's been out a long time, and I can't see him being overly aggressive.

[juggernaut666]

juggernaut666,



No. I realise that Joshua and Wilder both possess enough power to have knocked out Dempsey, had they have had the opportunity. Yes, until I've seen more from them, I won't agree that Dempsey wouldn't have had a chance to have beaten them. It's okay to note their size, but they don't appear to have the abilities of guys like Lennox and Vitali.

Basically:

You think it would have been a forgone conclusion to the disparity in size, whereas although I can acknowledge that, as yet, I've not been impressed by Wilder.



Where did I say he'd be an underdog?

Are they trained better today?

In my opinion, although Joshua has a great physique, I actually think he's too big. I think he'd benefit by dropping down in weight. His body is currently carrying around an awful lot of mass. I can see him gassing in a tough 12 round fight.



I used Joe as an example to illustrate that the right blend of skills and style can overcome disparities in size.



I've never even mentioned Dempsey vs Wlad in any detail. As above, Sanders was listed as an example to illustrate that a smaller man can overcome disparities in size.

You guys scoff at the notion that a guy like Louis could have beaten a guy like Wlad, even though he wasn't much smaller than a guy like Sanders.



In my opinion, Mike was a better fighter when he fought to his full capabilities. But once again: Mike is a perfect example of skills and style overcoming size.



There is no: "End of"

You've no idea how he would have handled that style.



Willie Meehan just highlights the old adage:

"Styles make fights"

Doug Jones gave Ali a hard fight, yet Ali went on to beat Foreman.

Where have I said that Dempsey walks through the modern era?

Why are you making things up?



More ignorant nonsense.

All I've said is that Dempsey would have had a chance to beat some of today's guys, and it's ignorant to say he wouldn't have just based on a disparity in size.

I gave you REAL matches Dempsey struggled in ,percentages ,statistics etc ...you live in the twilight zone if you really think Dempsey is going to beat most HW's now let alone a Lewis , Klitcko or Joshua . I would also use the word IGNORANT carefully if i were you because im not the one that actually needs proof or some weird rationaliztion as to why Dempsey would not remotely be favored over fighters like them !

Im obviously talking with someone who creeped out of a nostalgic history section so its a waste of time debating anything rational with you ....have a good one !