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Originally posted by billeau2
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These threads are always cringe worthy. Some sig worthy material here though: "people are faster now"... REally? So genetically our autonomic nervous system has changed huh? Ted Williams the hitter remains one of a few scoring incredibly high on a reflex test given to pilots...that was in what the early 40's?
"Weight makes great" lets dispel this: Any fighter so desiring could put weight on. Ray Corso says it best "the heavyweight division is an open division." And there is more to a heavyweight than weight...It has to do with your thickness, the size of your bones, your comfort level, your punch tolerance, etc.
Now lets talk about Dempsey: The end of the eighties was a true milestone... Tyson specifically was a special case because with Tyson had been a few select trainers who had actually seen the end of Jack Johnson's career in the ring, all the way up to iron mike. Whats interesting is a majority of these guys, and more than a few who had been there for Dempsey after JJ..., were asked who they thought the best heavy weight fighter they ever got to see...Most of them suprisingly chose Dempsey. Furthermore Tunney, who worked with Corbett, fought the likes of Greb, thought Dempsey was the best he ever fought.
With this in mind what would happen if Dempsey fought in the modern era? This is a very interesting question and there is actually some data. Gene Tunney trained with Corbett to develop his style. Corbett, though technically not a bare knuckles fighter was the last great heavyweight of that era. His technical approach, distancing, strategies were derived from working with Corbett who he admired as a mentor.
Tunney used these methods against the very intelligent and modern Dempsey. Dempsey's approach, coming in and establishing a true puncher's distance, as opposed to the James Figg derived system which was really a fencing system. To understand this watch how Jack Johnson, for example, starts his flurries with a step in, like he is running in, and watch how he sets up in doing this from at least 3 feet away from his opponent. Tunney was always at this distance, and would set up his attacks from this distance when given a chance... much like a fencer will start off with a lunge, and counter off the parry.
In this way there was a clear distinction between attack and defend, and instead of counter punching per se, one would catch the punches with their gloves to parry. Dempsey by contrast would start his attack right from a squared up position in front, his counters resulting from slipping the punches and coming into the body. Dempsey would also throw a hard jab, often stepping in, instead of a lead hand punch, which the old system used. Tunney knew a jab but often, like his mentor and the old system, would keep the foward hand like a piston, and throw it with no turn of the wrist, towards the bottom of the chin. This was a knock out blow when delivered with small gloves or no gloves, but would hardly register with gloves used today.
My point is that Dempsey in theory and practice was a harbinger to the final orthodoxy that was Joe Louis. But what Louis emphasized in technical punches that were perfectly executed, Dempsey was more interested in hitting things hard and working into position where an untelegraphed shot, could be delivered...at such a range that it could KO one in a telephone booth! for those who remember "telephone booths." lol
And that...is what made Jack so ****ing dangerous folks...He was untelegraphed, could hit you at any time because of his new distance, being squared up at all times, and had perfected the short hook, stepping jab and body attack. Against the taller fighters today I see no evidence that they could stop this attack. Dempsey was relentless, was really a lot like prime Tyson...Tyson studied Dempsey and really aped his techniques.
"Weight makes great" lets dispel this: Any fighter so desiring could put weight on. Ray Corso says it best "the heavyweight division is an open division." And there is more to a heavyweight than weight...It has to do with your thickness, the size of your bones, your comfort level, your punch tolerance, etc.
Now lets talk about Dempsey: The end of the eighties was a true milestone... Tyson specifically was a special case because with Tyson had been a few select trainers who had actually seen the end of Jack Johnson's career in the ring, all the way up to iron mike. Whats interesting is a majority of these guys, and more than a few who had been there for Dempsey after JJ..., were asked who they thought the best heavy weight fighter they ever got to see...Most of them suprisingly chose Dempsey. Furthermore Tunney, who worked with Corbett, fought the likes of Greb, thought Dempsey was the best he ever fought.
With this in mind what would happen if Dempsey fought in the modern era? This is a very interesting question and there is actually some data. Gene Tunney trained with Corbett to develop his style. Corbett, though technically not a bare knuckles fighter was the last great heavyweight of that era. His technical approach, distancing, strategies were derived from working with Corbett who he admired as a mentor.
Tunney used these methods against the very intelligent and modern Dempsey. Dempsey's approach, coming in and establishing a true puncher's distance, as opposed to the James Figg derived system which was really a fencing system. To understand this watch how Jack Johnson, for example, starts his flurries with a step in, like he is running in, and watch how he sets up in doing this from at least 3 feet away from his opponent. Tunney was always at this distance, and would set up his attacks from this distance when given a chance... much like a fencer will start off with a lunge, and counter off the parry.
In this way there was a clear distinction between attack and defend, and instead of counter punching per se, one would catch the punches with their gloves to parry. Dempsey by contrast would start his attack right from a squared up position in front, his counters resulting from slipping the punches and coming into the body. Dempsey would also throw a hard jab, often stepping in, instead of a lead hand punch, which the old system used. Tunney knew a jab but often, like his mentor and the old system, would keep the foward hand like a piston, and throw it with no turn of the wrist, towards the bottom of the chin. This was a knock out blow when delivered with small gloves or no gloves, but would hardly register with gloves used today.
My point is that Dempsey in theory and practice was a harbinger to the final orthodoxy that was Joe Louis. But what Louis emphasized in technical punches that were perfectly executed, Dempsey was more interested in hitting things hard and working into position where an untelegraphed shot, could be delivered...at such a range that it could KO one in a telephone booth! for those who remember "telephone booths." lol
And that...is what made Jack so ****ing dangerous folks...He was untelegraphed, could hit you at any time because of his new distance, being squared up at all times, and had perfected the short hook, stepping jab and body attack. Against the taller fighters today I see no evidence that they could stop this attack. Dempsey was relentless, was really a lot like prime Tyson...Tyson studied Dempsey and really aped his techniques.
Jack was unique.
I'm just about to start reading his biography: The Manassa Mauler.
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