the myth of bernard hopkins

[CaneloMaidana]

I'm in your head bro. 1 division for life.

[dougLand]

good analysis; i've followed the mw division for 20 years and surprised to learn that bhop didn't move up until 41.

to support your point that GGG is unfairly criticized for "playing it safe' in mw--ie "if he were truly great, he would move up":

moving up in weight divisions usually occurs sequentially as a fighter ages. among multi-division titleholders how common is it to hold/defend more than one division at a time?

pro debut of some middleweights:

danny jacobs, 21
peter quillin, 21,
sergio mora, 19,
david lemieux, 19,
gabriel rosado, 19,
marco antonio rubio, 19
canelo alvarez, 16

GGG’s professional debut was later than most—his first professional fight was shortly after he turned 24.

what’s more, GGG is a small middleweight—very small.

his 30-day weigh-ins for his last three fights:

vs brook: 165 lbs
vs wade: 164 lbs
vs lemieux: 165 lbs

by contrast, his opponents in each of these rights were 10 pounds heavier: 176, 175, and 176, respectively.

which is more difficult: for a fighter in a given weight class, winning a belt in the division immediately above and below, by defeating the weakest among the five title holders, or defeating all five title holders and thus simultaneously holding all five belts in his native division?

obviously, it “depends”, but i think the former happens more often than the latter. And again, when boxing writers talk about title holders in multiple weight classes, quite often those titles are sequential not simultaneous—ie, the fighter moves up in weight as he matures/ages and relinquishes the title in their former class, because they don’t intend to fight again at that weight

also, championship fights in which the challenger is the more marketable star in a lower weight division often reveal how different boxing is from most other sports--ie, the more marketable challenger will use his financial leverage to extract all sorts of concessions from the champion, glove weight, ring size, and catch weights, chief among them.

so for instance, there are two fighters who won world titles across five consecutive weight divisions--both extraordinary fighters, no question--sugar ray leonard, and tommy hearns.

for instance, sugar ray leonard, won the wbc light-heavyweight and wbc super-middleweight titles simultaneously—Donny Lalonde was the wbc light heavyweight champ and the super-middleweight title had just been created and had not been awarded. The contract though required that both fighters make the super-middleweight limit of 168, meaning that in order for Lalonde had to defend his wbc light-heavyweight title he had to make the weight limit in the class below light heavy—in other words, the light heavyweight title flight was fought at a catch weight, which was one full weight class (albeit a newly created one) below. I can’t provide a source for this one, but i’ve heard it many times from boxing analysts who were working when this fight occurred: the right was larger, due to a contractual requirement, which obviously favored leonard.

leonard never defended the light heavyweight title

among tommy hearns titles across five divisions, he won the IBO cruiserweight in 1999 and lost it in his next fight about a year later.

anyway, i've always thought that when evaluating a fighter's resume, too much reverence is given to multiple weight class titles.

[dansweeney]

one division coward. welterweight killer.

Two of the main accusations thrown at golovkin, but didnt hopkins do much the same?

Hopkins didnt move up in weight until he was 41 years old. And he stayed at middleweight for 16 years!!! And in fact he only moved up after he lost to taylor. At no point was he on a winning streak and decided, 'wait i need to go up in weight for a challenge', he stayed there until he was old and until he lost again.

And then i examine hopkins record, werent two of his two best wins against smaller men?- de la hoya and trinidad. But golovkin beats brook and that win gets written off completely cause hes smaller, but when hopkins did it, wow what an amazing achievement beating 147 fighters (de la hoya actually started off way lighter than 147 too).

So can hopkins fans please explain to me what is so different about the circumstances of the two fighters? Is this just another case of glorifying a past era? Cause what he did in his prime years looks very much like what people are slating golovkin for.

You 15yr olds new to boxing really need to stop....

[Robbie Barrett]

yeah, brook hasnt achieved as much as the other two although hes certainly not some no hoper. But most people slate that fight purely cause of the size difference. They didnt say 'oh brooks not that great' they just said 'its a middleweight picking on a welter'. So i dont see how they can criticise that fight so heavily but not criticise the de la hoya and trinidad match ups.

Both Trinidad and De La Hoya won titles at SWW and MW before fighting Hopkins. They are HOF fighters.

How is that the same as a title holder jumping straight from WW to MW, doing nothing in the divisions above WW?

That's like saying Mayweather beat Pacquiao who used to be a FW, so it's OK if Brook or any other WW fought Frampton.

[bluzi]

Dude....GGG is a monster and i enjoy his fights , but him and bhop are on 2 different levels in resume and legacy , when GGG career is over he will be LUCKY to be at the same level as Bhop , not sure you understand how far behind brook was in that mismatch , he went up 2 divisions to fight for his first time against the best MW in years for the first time brook had to deal with :
* MW power
* being bigger which impacted his speed/endurance/movement and general feeling in the ring.
* being smaller then his opponent - making him fight different then his ENTIRE CAREER.

the guy ballooned up for this fight .... its not a great win by GGG in any stretch of the imagination ,it was a OK win and a good money grab , not blaming GGG , it is what it is and Eubank bailed at the last second and they had the budget and date from SKY so they went for it.

BHOP IS A ****ING LEGEND , GGG IS NOT - lets hope he will become one down the road

[Thraxox]

Yup right on point there. And unlike BHOP who is an actual light heavyweight hiding as a heavyweight, you can just see clearly the size difference. Delahoya ws 5'10 and Bhop was 6'1, huge size differwnce and GGG was starting at 140 while bhop started at 175 who actually boils down to middle weight.

[////]

ill never understand this recent obsession with "moving up"

especially when the fighter in question is barely big enough for the division he's already in, and the next division up is a wasteland

boxing has never been known for its bright fanbase. One guy says something and 100,000 others just mindnessly chant for it like a pitchfork mob.

[-PBP-]

Great fighters have credentials that stand on their own and as a result, there is no need to bash the accomplishments of other ATG fighters to make excuses for said fighter.

[1g5a22]

Hopkins best wins at 160 are career WW'S. This is fact. The best MW he fought he lost to albeit as an ageing champ.

[1g5a22]

Both Trinidad and De La Hoya won titles at SWW and MW before fighting Hopkins. They are HOF fighters.

Yes but they are career WW's. Fact.