Everyone Wants to Talk About Floyd's IV - What About Pac-Monster's Toradol Abuse???

[ADP02]

I think I've found this study that you are talking about. I may be wrong, but since you didn't give a link, I had to go fishing around to find out exactly what you are talking about. Is it this:

http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/6/460.full.pdf

I think that's it because I see the information that you gave verified, and it does NOT help you. In fact it only strengthens what I've been telling you. I'll explain why.

First of all, let's get some things straight:

1. Normal Specific Gravity for a person:

Ideally, urine specific gravity results will fall between 1.002 and 1.030 if your kidneys are functioning normally.
http://www.healthline.com/health/uri...avity#Results5

Of course, this is without consideration of passing a drug test, but still I want to clear the air with this. Don't worry. It's only relevant as to say Nick's hydration level was reasonable for a civilian, but perhaps not according to drug test standards, which I will address later.

2. How Quest Diagnostics defines a diluted sample.
Quest Diagnostics does a creatinine test to delineate the hydration of a sample. If the sample is lower than 20ng/ml, Quest Labs then deems another test is needed to officially state the sample is diluted. The test is THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY TEST and the sample is deemed diluted if the sample is less than 1.003. So if the creatinine level is less than 20ng and the SpGr is less than 1.003, only then is the sample considered diluted, according to Quest labs.

3. How USADA/WADA define a diluted sample:
Suitable Specific Gravity for Analysis: Specific gravity measured at 1.005 or higher with a refractometer, or 1.010 or higher with lab sticks.

4. SMRTL WADA Accredited Lab's findings on specific gravity:

According to Eichner, "ideal" specific gravity for a urine sample is approximately 1.020...."We can take it a little more diluted than that, but that's what is ideal," Eichner said. "Obviously, we don't want a sample that is too dilute. It's hard to find levels of what you're looking for. Ideally, we try to make sure nothing is diluted more than 1.008."

This begs the question: Why did SMRTL accept the post fight specific gravity of 1.002? I can think of 2 possible explanations.

1. Since Nate's 1.002 SpGr is from before the fight, perhaps they felt it was fair that he be allowed to rehydrate going into the fight, knowing that they would test him again after the fight.

2. Since NSAC is not a WADA signatory, NSAC (who is responsible for the testing, and NOT USADA who could only accept a value above 1.005 as I showed you above) could accept lower values. This is verified here:

Although Diaz's tests produced a less-than=ideal specific gravity, they aren't dismissive for that reason alone. The NSAC has accepted urine tests in the past with specific gravities lower than what Diaz produced.
http://www.espn.com/blog/mma/post/_/...tic-commission

Ok, so now that we have that information, what were Nick Diaz's levels of hydration for the tests we are discussing?

• A. WADA Pre-fight test at 7:12pm: SpGr 1.002
• B. QUEST Post-fight test at 10:38pm: Creatinine 168.4mg/dl
  (Dr. Sample of Quest testified that this level means normal or slightly dehydrated).
• C. WADA Post-Fight test at 11:55pm: SpGr 1.009

As you can see, the WADA post fight test would not be considered dilute by USADA's standards, WADA's standards, or QUEST's standards.

It's your claim that Nick Diaz was able to dilute his sample for the 11:55pm test. Let's look at the amount of marijuana metabolite that was found:

• A. 7:12pm: 41.731 ng
• B. 10:38pm: 733.23 ng
• C. 11:55pm: 61.104 ng

One of these tests is WAYYYYYY off. This is where your study comes in. You claim that in 1 hour and 15 minutes, Nick Diaz can go from 733ng of marijuana metabolites to 61ng of marijuana metabolites. As the medical review officer (whose job it is to review drug tests!) testified, this is NOT MEDICALLY PLAUSIBLE!

1. He was, according to Dr. Sample of QUEST, perhaps slightly dehydrated at 10:38pm. First of all, a DCO from SMRTL was present at this time. This has been verified by the collection officer from NSAC. SMRTL's DCO witnessed Diaz give the 10:38pm sample. This would mean that the DCO from SMRTL then sat around and watched Nick Diaz hydrate enough to bring his levels down to 61ng from 733ng. That seems outrageous, don't you think?

2. It is NOT MEDICALLY PLAUSIBLE for Nick Diaz to hydrate enough to bring the levels down from 733ng to 61ng. Let's look at your study:

A. Your study is not very relevant to your claim. The subjects smoked one marijuana cigarette and then began hydrating after about 22 hours. Let's look at their marijuana metabolite levels after 22 hours of that marijuana use but before hydrating:

• Subject C: 21ng/ml
• Subject D: 53ng/ml
• Subject E: 35ng/ml
• Subject F: 94ng/ml
• Subject G: 53ng/ml

None of these subjects are anywhere near 733ng/ml!!!

Not only that, but look at the tables that are on that link. I'll give you one example from subject D since that was a 36 year old male at 94kg. Nick Diaz is 84kg, so I thought that's the best example to use.

[IMG]http://i62.***********.com/albums/h95/travestyny/Screen%20Shot%202016-10-23%20at%206.18.34%20AM.png[/IMG]

As you can see, after over 2 hours and 2 quarts of water, his specific gravity is now 1.005 and the marijuana metabolites decreased from 53ng to 10ng. After continuing to drink 1 quart of water every hour for a total of 4 hours, his specific gravity gets as low as 1.001 and his marijuana metabolite level only gets as low as 5ng.

SO HOW THE HELL DID NICK DIAZ, AT A SPECIFIC GRAVITY OF 1.009, GET HIS MARIJUANA LEVEL TO DROP FROM 733ng TO 61ng???? THE AMOUNT OF WATER HE WOULD HAVE TO DRINK IN ONLY 1 HOUR AND 17 MINUTES WOULD HAVE LITERALLY KILLED HIM, AND HIS SPECIFIC GRAVITY WOULD BE MUCH, MUCH LOWER!!!!

So your study actually helps to prove my point!

The Quest lab got lots of things wrong here!

• The test collector from NSAC didn't allow Nick to seal the bottles himself, against WADA protocol. They didn't have to I suppose because the sample was for Quest, a non-WADA accredited lab.
• The test collector from NSAC didn't check the box that said Nick witnessed him seal the bottles.
• The test collector from NSAC wrote Nic Diaz' name on the paperwork sent to QUEST which destroyed anonymity and created an opening for bias to effect the results.

WADA is viewed as having superior methods and drug-testing protocol.
If you don't believe me, just ask NSAC:

1. Commissioner Pat Lundvall:
"Quest does a rudimentary type of testing which is less refined than SMRTL."

"One of the things that, at least, that I try to look at is that we have adopted WADA's Prohibited list. And it's WADA, and given its general vast resources, has put marijuana on that Prohibited List in-competition. WADA made that decision. We didn't make that decision."

2. Commissioner Francisco Aguilar:
"Yes, I think anybody would like to employ the WADA standard. However, given the expense and the amount of compliance, it doesn't allow for, I think, combat sports throughout the country and throughout the world to have the resources to employ the WADA standard, but when we can we will...And with that in mind, I think we do have a positive test today. It's not up to the standard as many would judge throughout professional, elite athletes and the WADA standard, but it is a standard we have employed and we have utilized throughout time and I think we will continue to do so."

So WADA and it's reliance on specific gravity is good enough for NSAC....except that it costs too much.




You seemingly are trying to attack the integrity of the specific gravity test without stating outright that it's what you are doing. If Nick Diaz was in violation but WADA's rules allowed him to be found innocent, THAT MEANS THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY TEST! There's just no way around that. You have failed to show any evidence that the specific gravity test let Nick Diaz slip through the cracks being that:

1. It would be medically implausible to do what you're implying.
2. Factually, Nick Diaz did not over-hydrate being that his specific gravity was 1.009, which again is greater than the pre-fight test.
3. Your study helped to prove that the numbers don't jump anywhere near as much as you are trying to prove.

Strict WADA rules, which Mayweather would be subjected to due to USADA performing the drug tests, is that the specific gravity must be at 1.005 or higher regardless of the IV. This would therefore not be considered diluted according to WADA or Quest labs.

Does all of this not prove that you are wrong about the integrity of the specific gravity test?

I was going to provide the link but it seems like you found it. Its slightly different but appears to have the information that I looked at.


As for your numbers on Diaz, they look different that what I read. Anyways, that is NOT the point!!!
"The middle test was analyzed at a different lab, Quest Diagnostics, and produced a level of metabolites in excess of 300 ng/mL, more than twice the allowed limit of 150 ng/mL."


You are not calculating this right. That is your problem. You are calculating the time between TEST 2 and TEST 3. WHY? Read below


First of all Diaz was keeping himself hyper hydrated even before the fight and then tried to bring his body to the same state after the fight. So he was drinking fluids for many hours. Its just that he fought that night so the levels dropped by the end of his fight.

BEFORE FIGHT: Diaz was hyper hydrated.
TEST 1: Concludes that Diaz was hyper hydrated and over hydrated.
Fight: Even though fluid intake continued the exertion/perspiration from the fight caused loss in weight and consequently not as hydrated as BEFORE the FIGHT.
AFTER FIGHT: Knowing that he would be tested, Diaz continued to take in fluids.
TEST 2: Even though Diaz drank fluids it was not enough or in time to be hyperhydrated. TEST 2 agrees with that. Consequently DIAZ test results come back positive for drugs which is a violation.
AFTER TEST 2: Due to Diaz's intent to be hyper hydrated, he eventually was diluted enough but again, too late for TEST 2
TEST 3: LAB returned a result where Diaz's urine was acceptable as per WADA but still did not catch a positive result.


On day 1 of the study, subjects smoked a single marijuana cigarette (3.58% THC), and on day 3, they received a 40-mg dose of ******* hydrochloride by the intranasal route.
Ingestion of 1 gal of fluids (divided into 1-qt aliquots administered hourly) on days 2 and 4 produced highly dilute urine specimens with specific gravities < 1.0030 and creatinines < 20 mg/dL starting approximately 1.5 to 2.0 h following commencement of drinking.
These measures returned to baseline values within 4 to 6 h following drinking. Marijuana and ******* concentrations dropped rapidly below cutoff concentrations during and following excessive drinking. By the time subjects had ingested 2 qt of fluid, they were generally producing specimens that tested negative for drug metabolites.


http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/1.full.pdf



Here is an interview done AFTER his suspension. You still think he was not using? There are even quotes of him saying he thought he would be at a certain level under the threshold limit. :

"Tell us about your cannabis use.

If I’m at home and I’m training—doing my same things every day—then I’m definitely going to want to use cannabis. It’s gonna help. I’m trying to stay focused on what I’m doing. I don’t want a whole lot of things going on—people to call back, or text messages or whatever. I chill out, relax a little bit, and then I don’t have those issues. If I’m going to train all day, when I get done, I’m gonna want to smoke. If I have to go and train all day, before I go, I’m gonna want to smoke. If I wake up in the morning and feel beat to ****, and it’s going to take me forever to wake up, I smoke some weed and I wake right up. Then I have breakfast and I go do a workout."

[Zaroku]

Floyd won, PAC lost. Rematch. Castillo be the Ployd in my opinion, first fight. Castillo lost the second.

PAC lost the fight, and now we keep talking about a crap fight.

I gotta smoke another blunt.

[Zaroku]

I was going to provide the link but it seems like you found it. Its slightly different but appears to have the information that I looked at.


As for your numbers on Diaz, they look different that what I read. Anyways, that is NOT the point!!!
"The middle test was analyzed at a different lab, Quest Diagnostics, and produced a level of metabolites in excess of 300 ng/mL, more than twice the allowed limit of 150 ng/mL."


You are not calculating this right. That is your problem. You are calculating the time between TEST 2 and TEST 3. WHY? Read below


First of all Diaz was keeping himself hyper hydrated even before the fight and then tried to bring his body to the same state after the fight. So he was drinking fluids for many hours. Its just that he fought that night so the levels dropped by the end of his fight.

BEFORE FIGHT: Diaz was hyper hydrated.
TEST 1: Concludes that Diaz was hyper hydrated and over hydrated.
Fight: Even though fluid intake continued the exertion/perspiration from the fight caused loss in weight and consequently not as hydrated as BEFORE the FIGHT.
AFTER FIGHT: Knowing that he would be tested, Diaz continued to take in fluids.
TEST 2: Even though Diaz drank fluids it was not enough or in time to be hyperhydrated. TEST 2 agrees with that. Consequently DIAZ test results come back positive for drugs which is a violation.
AFTER TEST 2: Due to Diaz's intent to be hyper hydrated, he eventually was diluted enough but again, too late for TEST 2
TEST 3: LAB returned a result where Diaz's urine was acceptable as per WADA but still did not catch a positive result.


On day 1 of the study, subjects smoked a single marijuana cigarette (3.58% THC), and on day 3, they received a 40-mg dose of ******* hydrochloride by the intranasal route.
Ingestion of 1 gal of fluids (divided into 1-qt aliquots administered hourly) on days 2 and 4 produced highly dilute urine specimens with specific gravities < 1.0030 and creatinines < 20 mg/dL starting approximately 1.5 to 2.0 h following commencement of drinking.
These measures returned to baseline values within 4 to 6 h following drinking. Marijuana and ******* concentrations dropped rapidly below cutoff concentrations during and following excessive drinking. By the time subjects had ingested 2 qt of fluid, they were generally producing specimens that tested negative for drug metabolites.


http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/1.full.pdf



Here is an interview done AFTER his suspension. You still think he was not using? There are even quotes of him saying he thought he would be at a certain level under the threshold limit. :

"Tell us about your cannabis use.

If I’m at home and I’m training—doing my same things every day—then I’m definitely going to want to use cannabis. It’s gonna help. I’m trying to stay focused on what I’m doing. I don’t want a whole lot of things going on—people to call back, or text messages or whatever. I chill out, relax a little bit, and then I don’t have those issues. If I’m going to train all day, when I get done, I’m gonna want to smoke. If I have to go and train all day, before I go, I’m gonna want to smoke. If I wake up in the morning and feel beat to ****, and it’s going to take me forever to wake up, I smoke some weed and I wake right up. Then I have breakfast and I go do a workout."

Can I count on you to buy a PAC manniquin, sheets, pillows, blankets and pajama? Free PAC excuses thrown in.

Dial now! Operators standing by! Dail 1 800 PAC T@RD!

[ADP02]

Can I count on you to buy a PAC manniquin, sheets, pillows, blankets and pajama? Free PAC excuses thrown in.

Dial now! Operators standing by! Dail 1 800 PAC T@RD!

I dialed for curiosity. They told me that they are out of stock.

Reason: They told me some guy named Zaroku bought out the remaining stock!!!

Well, if we meet in December, I hope I can count on you giving me a set?

[Zaroku]

I dialed for curiosity. They told me that they are out of stock.

Reason: They told me some guy named Zaroku bought out the remaining stock!!!

Well, if we meet in December, I hope I can count on you giving me a set?

No problem! A complenatary PAC bedding and pillow!

I got a real question: San Miguel vs Corona?

I prefer San Miguel beer!

[ADP02]

No problem! A complenatary PAC bedding and pillow!

I got a real question: San Miguel vs Corona?

I prefer San Miguel beer!

I haven't been there in a while so I can go for that for sure.

[Zaroku]

I haven't been there in a while so I can go for that for sure.

I'm the king of Makati, metro Manila. I roll hard. Real hard.

But, I can chill too! I'll keep this post PG, not R or Xrated!

Sometimes, even an OG has to slow his roll. I'm not ready for my homeboys to pour out liquor for me. It's up to god how my hand plays out.

I didn't deal this hand, but I'll make the best outta what I got.

It'd be great to meet a fellow boxing fan, especially in the country I love, the Philippines.

Ployd really pissed me off with his Phaggot azz idiotic statements about the Philippines. He's a rich, and ignorant azz wipe. But, Floyd did beat Manny.

[CatchAndShoot]

We just can't leave either scenario go, huh? Literally every angle about Floyd-Manny has been exhausted for quite some time now

This. And this is the reason why boxing's on life support. No one ever wants to let go of the past, and embrace the future.

But honestly, who can blame them? There's like literally no one besides GGG, Canelo, and maybe kovalev that brings any interest to casuals or noobies, and even they're not super transcendent superstar type talents.

GGG maybe, but even then, he doesn't really look like a once in a lifetime fighter while hes actually fighting. His results do, but for some reason you just don't get that feeling with GGG. At least I don't.

I honestly think its because he fights too smooth. Hes got good footwork, good defense, very good offense, good fundamentals, crazy power, but he just doesn't move like a superstar type fighter. He doesn't explode or pinch like Tyson. He doesn't glide like RJJ or sugar ray Leonard. He doesn't do anything eye popping spectacular. Hes just a blue collared type fighter with power. He's not dynamic aesthetically, IMO.

[travestyny]

I was going to provide the link but it seems like you found it. Its slightly different but appears to have the information that I looked at.


As for your numbers on Diaz, they look different that what I read. Anyways, that is NOT the point!!!
"The middle test was analyzed at a different lab, Quest Diagnostics, and produced a level of metabolites in excess of 300 ng/mL, more than twice the allowed limit of 150 ng/mL."

The metabolites found in the second test was 733ng. The specific numbers I gave can be verified. There are some wrong values in articles online. I can verify all of the numbers.

You are not calculating this right. That is your problem. You are calculating the time between TEST 2 and TEST 3. WHY? Read below


First of all Diaz was keeping himself hyper hydrated even before the fight and then tried to bring his body to the same state after the fight. So he was drinking fluids for many hours. Its just that he fought that night so the levels dropped by the end of his fight.

BEFORE FIGHT: Diaz was hyper hydrated.
TEST 1: Concludes that Diaz was hyper hydrated and over hydrated.
Fight: Even though fluid intake continued the exertion/perspiration from the fight caused loss in weight and consequently not as hydrated as BEFORE the FIGHT.
AFTER FIGHT: Knowing that he would be tested, Diaz continued to take in fluids.
TEST 2: Even though Diaz drank fluids it was not enough or in time to be hyperhydrated. TEST 2 agrees with that. Consequently DIAZ test results come back positive for drugs which is a violation.
AFTER TEST 2: Due to Diaz's intent to be hyper hydrated, he eventually was diluted enough but again, too late for TEST 2
TEST 3: LAB returned a result where Diaz's urine was acceptable as per WADA but still did not catch a positive result.

Dude, this makes absolutely zero sense. The fight ended at 9:34ish. Not sure how much time he spent in the ring after that. The first test was at 10:38pm. So you are trying to argue based on your own speculation that he drank enough water to lower his levels from 733ng to 61ng right after the fight, yet his sample for the drug test came in slightly dehydrated. That's ridiculous and you know it. Get this through your head. AT 10:38PM HE WAS SLIGHTLY DEHYDRATED. THIS IS ACCORDING TO QUEST. THERE IS NO WAY THAT HE HAD THAT MUCH WATER IN HIS SYSTEM AND STILL CAME IN SLIGHTLY DEHYDRATED. NO CHANCE IN HELL. FURTHERMORE, HIS SPECIFIC GRAVITY WAS 1.009 FOR THE THIRD TEST. THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED DILUTED AS PER WADA OR QUEST.

On day 1 of the study, subjects smoked a single marijuana cigarette (3.58% THC), and on day 3, they received a 40-mg dose of ******* hydrochloride by the intranasal route.
Ingestion of 1 gal of fluids (divided into 1-qt aliquots administered hourly) on days 2 and 4 produced highly dilute urine specimens with specific gravities < 1.0030 and creatinines < 20 mg/dL starting approximately 1.5 to 2.0 h following commencement of drinking.
These measures returned to baseline values within 4 to 6 h following drinking. Marijuana and ******* concentrations dropped rapidly below cutoff concentrations during and following excessive drinking. By the time subjects had ingested 2 qt of fluid, they were generally producing specimens that tested negative for drug metabolites.

I already went through this. None of the subjects had as many metabolites as Nick Diaz. And the jump in the metabolites was nowhere near as big!!!! NOWHERE CLOSE. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

Here is an interview done AFTER his suspension. You still think he was not using? There are even quotes of him saying he thought he would be at a certain level under the threshold limit. :

"Tell us about your cannabis use.

If I’m at home and I’m training—doing my same things every day—then I’m definitely going to want to use cannabis. It’s gonna help. I’m trying to stay focused on what I’m doing. I don’t want a whole lot of things going on—people to call back, or text messages or whatever. I chill out, relax a little bit, and then I don’t have those issues. If I’m going to train all day, when I get done, I’m gonna want to smoke. If I have to go and train all day, before I go, I’m gonna want to smoke. If I wake up in the morning and feel beat to ****, and it’s going to take me forever to wake up, I smoke some weed and I wake right up. Then I have breakfast and I go do a workout."

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU. I DO BELIEVE HE WAS USING. I DON'T KNOW WHEN HE LAST USED. BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT HIS LEVELS WERE NOWHERE NEAR AS HIGH AS THE SECOND TEST BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE THAT HYDRATING IN THE AMOUNT OF TIME HE HAD WOULD HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO BRING HIS LEVEL DOWN THAT MUCH. THE SPECIALIST TESTIFIED THAT IT WOULD HAVE CAUSED HIM TO HAVE A SEVERE CASE OF (OUR GOOD FRIEND) HYPONATREMIA.

GIVE UP. SPECULATING THAT HE WAS HYDRATING IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE FIGHT TO THAT EXTENT AND HAVING THIS NOT SHOW UP ON THE FIRST POST-FIGHT URINE TEST IS RIDICULOUS. FURTHERMORE, THE NSAC COLLECTION OFFICER STATED THAT NICK HAD TROUBLE URINATING, WHICH MADE THE SAMPLE COLLECTION TAKE EVEN LONGER. WHY WASN'T THIS FIRST POST-FIGHT SAMPLE DILUTED INSTEAD OF SLIGHTLY DEHYDRATED IF HE DRANK SO MUCH AND DELAYED? SO HOW MUCH TIME DID HE HAVE TO TAKE THAT EXTRA WATER? A HALF AN HOUR? THEN SMRTL DCO SHOWS UP AND HE CONTINUES TO HYDRATE IN FRONT OF THE DCO TO AN EXTENT THAT WOULD BRING HIS LEVELS DOWN FROM 733NG TO 61NG???? IT MAKES NO SENSE! HE DRANK THAT MUCH WATER DIRECTLY AFTER THE FIGHT, YET 2 HOURS 20 MINUTES LATER HIS SPECIFIC GRAVITY IS 1.009 AND NOT COMPLETELY OBLITERATED TO DILUTED??? YOU LOSE, AND I TOLD YOU THAT YOU WOULD. THIS IS OVER.

[Lester Tutor]