Let's be honest here....Manny took human growth hormone right?...Reasonable debate.

[WesternChamp]

i like this alt.. and the person behind this alt is also posting in here too. look at the signs.

[ADP02]

I know lots of people are going to sigh.....

[craigus1990]

Most people will berate you about this thread, saying it has been done to death etc... but I disagree, I think there are interesting points to discuss around the subject matter... I class myself as an honest, scientifically minded individual... and I no longer view boxing with a bias... as I only watch for the interest in good fights, and not to be a fanboy of certain fighter.
Off the bat I will go on record and say, without admission, we would never be able to give an answer that is without argument either way... (which is why some people would rather not discuss it... bit of a fools errand) but if we are to make and individual judgement, then a discussion of the arguments for both sides can make for a good platform.
Now, to state my position, I would have to say I personally believe he was juicing at some point.... what exactly he was taking and for how long, I wouldn't claim to know... but there are a lot of signs that indicate he was.
I think that without performance enhancers, he was still a solid fighter that legitimately won a lot of fights and would have been a good champion either way... but I think performance enhancers took him to a level he wouldn't have reached otherwise....
One of the points you brought up, that I find one of the more interesting as an argument for the case (and one that is very difficult to argue against), was how there were a number of fights where the shear volume of activity of explosive movement/actions, that occurred without slowdown or visual signs of fatigue, were in my opinion beyond the abilities of someone who is clean of performance enhancers. I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all... I mean we are talking consistent activity over every minute of every round... without ever looking like he was out of breath... the mind boggles. It is also quite a solid argument, just because you can almost pinpoint the moment it became apparent... if you watch him before '06, even though he was a fighter that threw a lot of shots and showed a lot of activity in terms of movement etc, he would gas... he would get visibly tired and would show it... after '06 (give or take a year, these dates are being pulled from memory and are prone to error), to my eye, he stopped showing fatigue and was able to sustain energy levels beyond what we had seen before... and then in around '11/'12 he began to look human again, and would begin to visibly slow down and fatigue over the course of 12 round fights... that could be argued to be age... but why did he have this strange 5 or so year period (after his natural biological peak) where he looked like he could never tire?
But yeah, add to that all of the other strange indicators... (his unnaturally large hands and head, his odd behaviour when prompted to take certain drug testing for a career high pay day [that came with strange excuses that seemingly changed by the week]) and all of it really does build a strong enough case for one to at least be highly su****ious.
Again, we can't really know for certain, but yeah, I am almost convinced that something wasn't quite legit.

[FrankieClutch]

He may have. He may not have. It wouldn't shock me if anyone in any sport took an illegal substance. But without proof, we can only speculate in which case I feel like these conversations become redundant

[ADP02]

The only reason this came up is because of Floyd and his team. They went to court and Floyd presented no evidence. No surprise there.

5+ years later the fight finally gets made. The accuser, Floyd, admitted to taking something that was banned. This one is a FACT since Floyd admitted to doing so. How ironic!





.

[Butt stuff]

i like this alt.. and the person behind this alt is also posting in here too. look at the signs.

Whos alt is it? Spill the goss why don't ya

[WesternChamp]

Most people will berate you about this thread, saying it has been done to death etc... but I disagree, I think there are interesting points to discuss around the subject matter... I class myself as an honest, scientifically minded individual... and I no longer view boxing with a bias... as I only watch for the interest in good fights, and not to be a fanboy of certain fighter.
Off the bat I will go on record and say, without admission, we would never be able to give an answer that is without argument either way... (which is why some people would rather not discuss it... bit of a fools errand) but if we are to make and individual judgement, then a discussion of the arguments for both sides can make for a good platform.
Now, to state my position, I would have to say I personally believe he was juicing at some point.... what exactly he was taking and for how long, I wouldn't claim to know... but there are a lot of signs that indicate he was.
I think that without performance enhancers, he was still a solid fighter that legitimately won a lot of fights and would have been a good champion either way... but I think performance enhancers took him to a level he wouldn't have reached otherwise....
One of the points you brought up, that I find one of the more interesting as an argument for the case (and one that is very difficult to argue against), was how there were a number of fights where the shear volume of activity of explosive movement/actions, that occurred without slowdown or visual signs of fatigue, were in my opinion beyond the abilities of someone who is clean of performance enhancers. I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all... I mean we are talking consistent activity over every minute of every round... without ever looking like he was out of breath... the mind boggles. It is also quite a solid argument, just because you can almost pinpoint the moment it became apparent... if you watch him before '06, even though he was a fighter that threw a lot of shots and showed a lot of activity in terms of movement etc, he would gas... he would get visibly tired and would show it... after '06 (give or take a year, these dates are being pulled from memory and are prone to error), to my eye, he stopped showing fatigue and was able to sustain energy levels beyond what we had seen before... and then in around '11/'12 he began to look human again, and would begin to visibly slow down and fatigue over the course of 12 round fights... that could be argued to be age... but why did he have this strange 5 or so year period (after his natural biological peak) where he looked like he could never tire?
But yeah, add to that all of the other strange indicators... (his unnaturally large hands and head, his odd behaviour when prompted to take certain drug testing for a career high pay day [that came with strange excuses that seemingly changed by the week]) and all of it really does build a strong enough case for one to at least be highly su****ious.
Again, we can't really know for certain, but yeah, I am almost convinced that something wasn't quite legit.

If that's your only argument that he was throwing 100 punches per round moving non stop for all 12 rounds well if that's all it takes then why haven't we see anyone else do the same? Let's just forget that pac was in his prime during those run right? Pac doesnt get old and can't slow down right? When he does then it's a sign of being off the peds right..

[WesternChamp]

Whos alt is it? Spill the goss why don't ya

Check the first page and look for the signs. Notice how they stopped posting all of a sudden.

[craigus1990]

If that's your only argument that he was throwing 100 punches per round moving non stop for all 12 rounds well if that's all it takes then why haven't we see anyone else do the same? Let's just forget that pac was in his prime during those run right? Pac doesnt get old and can't slow down right? When he does then it's a sign of being off the peds right..

Why is it, when you post an argument in a discussion, you get some menstrual person who clearly hasn't read properly, half of what you wrote.. who reads up to a point, gets all menstrual and insta-replies with a load of rubbish that was already answered in the original post and/or is self explanatory or not even worth talking about? Seriously? Why every time?
Read my post it answers you already...
The only thing it doesn't answer is your assertion "why have we seen no-one else doing it" which from where I am sitting, sounds more like and argument for him being on a performance enhancer... so you might want to rethink that one...?

[therealpugilist]

yeah manny is the only person that is not suppose to get old, age, show signs of wear, slow down, etc. if and when this does happens, then its a sign of him abusing steroids.....

he is the only fighter to turn down the biggest fight and kill negotiations over DRUG TESTING CUT OFF DATES.....ROACH ADMITTED TOO...THENGOES ON TO CALL ARIZA FISHY AFTER HE ISNT WITH THEIR TEAM...LASTLY, ROACH DIDNT KNOW WHAT WAS IN HIS PRIZED PUPILS PR EFIGHT WORK OUT DRINKS......HMMMMMMMMMMM....