The Final Verdict: Did Pac Have a Full Thickness Rotator Cuff Tear?

[ADP02]

Bro, they are still talking about a rematch. I just read today that when Mayweather visited Roach recently, Roach stated that he wished he was visiting to ask about a rematch with Pacquaio.

Didn't you state that because of the "full thickness rotator cuff tear," Pacquaio was a one arm fighter. That's what they want you to believe. I've said it a billion times. If you don't want to accept it, that's fair.

But don't you think we've both said enough now?

The talk was about a McGregor PPV fight not one with Manny.

Yes, one thing that most agree on is, just like you told me, Manny was fighting with one arm. What a shame. 5 years too late and Manny fighting with one arm.


Look, you had no real facts.

You are a Floyd fan that hates it that Floyd got Vegas A side advantages and was OK to use a banned method and still it was a close fight where most of the highlights were of Manny hitting Floyd while being disadvantaged even further since he was basically fighting with one arm.


You spoke of swimming as a fact but I keep asking you, where is your facts on Manny? You had none!!!

You spoke about basketball as a fact but Manny is a lefty and his injured shoulder was his right. So this too was a joke.

Everyone including Manny, Roach and Arum agreed with you. Except for some passive rehab initially, Manny was supposed to go back to LA to see a doctor and for the rehab with PT ..... but they all told you that Manny didn't go so again, they agreed that Manny did not see the doctor nor did that rehab that he was supposed to do.

None of that means that Manny did nothing. Manny did his own thing and it worked. Even Teddy Atlas said that its cool alternative. Manny trains like crazy. He was already in great shape. You do not think that Manny can do it? Again, all injuries are different but Manny was able to.



Manny is a lefty. Injury happened to his right.











.

[ADP02]

the best part is that the boxing industry left Pac cold and to the wolves regardless of the conspiratorial agendas against Floyd or Pac. Even after Floyd retired, Pac vs Bradley 3 snoozfest. Very happy justice was served and karma slapped everyone involved believing like gullibles... that Pac could do no wrong doing or as if HBO never did any wrong against Floyd throughout his career.

Karma's a btch.

It was a very good fight by both fighters but Manny was just better.

Then you cannot say that you like Floyd for his boxing or his offensive output because that would then qualify for a word that is much worse than snoozefest.

[travestyny]

The talk was about a McGregor PPV fight not one with Manny.

Yes, one thing that most agree on is, just like you told me, Manny was fighting with one arm. What a shame. 5 years too late and Manny fighting with one arm.


Look, you had no real facts.

You are a Floyd fan that hates it that Floyd got Vegas A side advantages and was OK to use a banned method and still it was a close fight where most of the highlights were of Manny hitting Floyd while being disadvantaged even further since he was basically fighting with one arm.


You spoke of swimming as a fact but I keep asking you, where is your facts on Manny? You had none!!!

You spoke about basketball as a fact but Manny is a lefty and his injured shoulder was his right. So this too was a joke.

Everyone including Manny, Roach and Arum agreed with you. Except for some passive rehab initially, Manny was supposed to go back to LA to see a doctor and for the rehab with PT ..... but they all told you that Manny didn't go so again, they agreed that Manny did not see the doctor nor did that rehab that he was supposed to do.

None of that means that Manny did nothing. Manny did his own thing and it worked. Even Teddy Atlas said that its cool alternative. Manny trains like crazy. He was already in great shape. You do not think that Manny can do it? Again, all injuries are different but Manny was able to.

.

Jesus Christ. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP????

YOU said he did aquatic rehab with not only NO proof, but even when he is quoted saying I NEVER DID REHAB!

YOU fail to take into account his poor shooting form that clearly shows he maneuvers his right arm behind his head and shoots partially with his right hand.

YOU claim he had nothing to do with swimming, when he said ALL I DID WAS SWIM.


GIVE UP ALREADY. JUST STOP. IT'S BEEN OVER!!!!

HIS RIGHT ARM EXTENDS BEHIND HIS HEAD!


HE CLEARLY SHOOTS PARTIALLY WITH HIS RIGHT BECAUSE OF HIS POOR FORM!

[ADP02]

Jesus Christ. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP????

YOU said he did aquatic rehab with not only NO proof, but even when he is quoted saying I NEVER DID REHAB!

YOU fail to take into account his poor shooting form that clearly shows he maneuvers his right arm behind his head and shoots partially with his right hand.

YOU claim he had nothing to do with swimming, when he said ALL I DID WAS SWIM.


GIVE UP ALREADY. JUST STOP. IT'S BEEN OVER!!!!

HIS RIGHT ARM EXTENDS BEHIND HIS HEAD!


HE CLEARLY SHOOTS PARTIALLY WITH HIS RIGHT BECAUSE OF HIS POOR FORM!

Say what?

Its YOU not me that has to show proof that Manny was not injured as he said he was!!!

I have my proof:
- Renowned doctor confirmed injury and surgery
- Other doctors confirmed many months later that it was healing well but not healed yet. They even did an MRI and had Manny do some ROM exercises. After getting the MRI and expert opinion, Manny said that it was 80-90% healed in October.
- Roach said Manny did some passive rehab.
- Manny was supposed to go see a doctor and get rehab from a PT but decided not to. All of us are in agreement. Roach, Manny, Arum all agreed.
- Roach said he was supposed to get some rehab later.
- Manny did his own thing and proved to be successful. He said his water activities contributed to his improvements.
- Manny's doctor said its not the degree of the tear but lots of things that can make it a serious.
"Very good, very healthy. So all those things that we really look for to determine seriousness or severity were not there for Manny. " - Dr ElAttrache
- Manny came back ~ 1 year later and fought Bradley. Floyd fans said he was going to fight again soon after.
- I debunked several of your supposed facts/evidence including the picture (happened before the surgery not 1 month after).
- I showed you studies where functional recovery could be earlier for some and later for others. This includes some who had a large and even some with massive rotator cuff tears. So add that to what Manny's doctor said (not serious, not severe) ..... what Manny did was more than possible.
- You said no rehab because you are stuck with that article (in August) and do not know what "no rehab" means. It meant that he did not go see the doctor and PT when he was supposed as per appointment/schedule. Manny did it himself. I keep on telling you that but you are STUCK! Open your mind:
July, 2015 article in response to Arum:
"But he(Arum) has nothing to worry about (regarding) my injury. I’m doing the rehab myself"


and sorry to tell you but Manny is left handed



.

[travestyny]

Say what?

Its YOU not me that has to show proof that Manny was not injured as he said he was!!!

I have my proof:
- Renowned doctor confirmed injury and surgery
- Other doctors confirmed many months later that it was healing well but not healed yet. They even did an MRI and had Manny do some ROM exercises. After getting the MRI and expert opinion, Manny said that it was 80-90% healed in October.
- Roach said Manny did some passive rehab.
- Manny was supposed to go see a doctor and get rehab from a PT but decided not to. All of us are in agreement. Roach, Manny, Arum all agreed.
- Roach said he was supposed to get some rehab later.
- Manny did his own thing and proved to be successful. He said his water activities contributed to his improvements.
- Manny's doctor said its not the degree of the tear but lots of things that can make it a serious.
"Very good, very healthy. So all those things that we really look for to determine seriousness or severity were not there for Manny. " - Dr ElAttrache
- Manny came back ~ 1 year later and fought Bradley. Floyd fans said he was going to fight again soon after.
- I debunked several of your supposed facts/evidence including the picture (happened before the surgery not 1 month after).
- I showed you studies where functional recovery could be earlier for some and later for others. This includes some who had a large and even some with massive rotator cuff tears. So add that to what Manny's doctor said (not serious, not severe) ..... what Manny did was more than possible.
- You said no rehab because you are stuck with that article (in August) and do not know what "no rehab" means. It meant that he did not go see the doctor and PT when he was supposed as per appointment/schedule. Manny did it himself. I keep on telling you that but you are STUCK! Open your mind:
July, 2015 article in response to Arum:
"But he(Arum) has nothing to worry about (regarding) my injury. I’m doing the rehab myself"


and sorry to tell you but Manny is left handed
.

You really have to stop with your delusion. It's embarrassing at this point. I've trashed all of your points a billion times now, so I don't know why you feel it's necessary to keep posting the same things.

1. You have no credibility when trying to defend Manny based on what his doctors said because I've listed about 12 quotations from you stating that any Floyd fan that believes what his doctors say are naive. You can't have it both ways. This is what we call being a hypocrite.

2. Your made up stories about what Pac did are not believable. First you said he did some rehab with a therapist and later decided to do it all himself. Now you are saying he did it all himself. His quotation clearly states that he NEVER saw a doctor and NEVER went to rehab. That would mean he was rehabbing himself, as you stated, and try to say it was aquatic rehab with no proof. How did he learn aquatic rehab if he never saw a doctor. Furthermore, his quotation also said ALL HE DID WAS SWIM. I posted around 11 medical documents that prohibit swimming for at least the first 3 months, and it was at that point that he said his wound was healed and he was shown in a video playing basketball. You try to explain away this by saying he didn't swim at all. That means you believe he is a liar, right? Then we agree. He is a liar.

3. The doctor talked about the degree of the tear. What is your point? He also gave the time frame for recovery. I posted many documents about the timeframe for recovery. I talked about Kobe Bryant's recovery time. What you are trying to prove seems to be that his condition allowed him to do activities that he shouldn't have been able to do at a time frame that is much quicker than the earliest accepted time frame for recovery. Unless he is wolverine, it doesn't fit. He should not have been swimming before 3 months, and certainly not swimming enough to have rehabbed his shoulder. He shouldn't have been swimming at all according to the 11 medical documents I listed.

4. You keep stating you debunked the picture and others of my support. You should go and learn what "debunk" means, because of the information I gave in this entire thread, you have not debunked one thing.

5. You don't address what you see in the pictures of him playing basketball at all. I understand why you want to avoid that.

TELL ME, DO YOU NOT SEE WHAT HIS RIGHT SHOULDER IS DOING????


Finally, just to reiterate about what you wrote in red:

HE REHABBED HIMSELF FOR 3 MONTHS BY SWIMMING!!!

"Swimming plays no role in the rehabilitation program for people with rotator cuff injuries and, second, swimmers are at risk of getting rotator cuff injuries because the shoulders play such an important role in swimming strokes."

"Rehabilitation guidelines for repairing the rotator cuff, clearly rule out swimming, even at 14 weeks after surgery."
http://www.livestrong.com/article/39...-rotator-cuff/

With the consent of their surgeon, a patient may return to activities such as swimming between 4 and 6 months following the procedure.
http://www.orthop.washington.edu/?q=...tor-cuff-tears

Type 1 Rotator Cuff Repair:
No Swimming for up to 15 weeks after surgery.

Type 2 Rotator Cuff Repair:
No swimming up to 20 weeks after surgery.
http://www.uwhealth.org/files/uwheal...RTC_Repair.pdf

Return to swimming 6-8 months after surgery.
http://www.massgeneral.org/ortho-spo...20protocol.pdf

No swimming up to 25 weeks after surgery
http://uhealthsportsmedicine.com/doc..._Tenodesis.pdf

No swimming up to 19 weeks after surgery
http://www.taosortho.com/patientinfo...20protocol.pdf

Patients can return to swimming with a graduated program from 3-6 months post surgery
http://www.shouldersurgery.com.au/ro...ff-repair.html

No swimming for the first 4 months
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/rot...ond-the-basics

No swimming for until months 4 - 6
http://www.orthonc.com/sites/default...uff_Repair.pdf

Can resume swimming at 3 months(this is the site that you chose to mention, and it still doesn't agree with you)
http://www.sosmed.org/specialties/sh...tor-cuff-tear/

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU SAID YOU DEBUNKED, CORRECT? NOW HOW DID YOU DEBUNK ALL OF THE MEDICAL DOCUMENTS I LISTED ABOVE? OH, THAT'S RIGHT. YOU SAID MANNY DIDN'T SWIM.

ALL I DID WAS SWIM IN THE OCEAN.

So much for your fake debunking. It's over. LET IT GO.

[aboutfkntime]

"I tore my rotator cuff. My arm was killing me. It was hurting so bad, it was one of the most painful feelings that I ever had." - Floyd Mayweather

"After Mayweather's successful shoulder surgery, Castillo re-matched with Mayweather"


April 20, 2002 to December 7, 2002
Initially the fight was scheduled for August 10 then Oct 5 (Castillo got hurt)


but the fight was supposed to occur on August 10 but Floyd didn't want to fight in LA, CA ....

April 2?, 2002 surgery to August 10, 2002?
Ready to announce the fight in May? Early June???

EXACTLY !!

1) the injury was visible during the fight
2) Mayweather mentioned it to his corner
3) his corner was seen working on the shoulder between rounds
4) Mayweather stopped using that arm
5) the injury was acknowledged immediately

None of that applied to Pac.

Thanks for providing that contrasting example of a REAL injury

greenK

[travestyny]

and sorry to tell you but Manny is left handed

.

Ok. Let's get this out of the way. Now pay close attention.

Your claim is that he should be able to shoot buckets because he is left handed. Now look at what the experts have stated.


“We operate on partial tears, too. Go in, clean things up. … At that elite level, it’s six weeks till you’re doing major weight training, and at three months, you could be back playing basketball. It’s a much shorter rehab, and that’s a big deal.”
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/01/nba-...angeles-lakers

Ok, so partial tears, regardless of whether it's your shooting or non-shooting hand, you can be back to playing basketball in 3 months. Ok. Now keep following me.

Carmelo Anthony, a right handed shooter, suffered a torn labrum and partial rotator cuff tear in his LEFT, non-shooting shoulder. He opted NOT to have surgery and only to rehab, and luckily he was able to continue playing comfortably. However, he had to make the decision on whether to have surgery or not.

The following information is taken from an article titled:
Will Carmelo Anthony Need Surgery, and What Would Rehab Be?

"For Anthony, it is the movement that is most worrisome. While the injury was on his nondominant side, both arms are necessary to the smooth flow of the shot."



"In the most likely scenario, where no anchoring into the bone is necessary, the normal return time is about three months. That's if surgery is even necessary in the first place."
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...would-rehab-be

So for basketball players with a partial tear, regardless of which shoulder, recovery time is the same. Following? Ok.

Now, Pacquaio had a FULL-THICKNESS ROTATOR CUFF SURGERY where it WAS REQUIRED TO ANCHOR THE LIGAMENT BACK INTO THE BONE. He was shooting at 3 months and returned to FULL-CONTACT BASKETBALL at 5 months. He likely would have returned earlier if possible, because this was his team's SEASON OPENER!!!

KOBE BRYANT who had the same surgery first took a shot at 7 MONTHS. He returned to FULL-CONTACT BASKETBALL at over 8 months!

Once again, in case you missed it:
"For Anthony, it is the movement that is most worrisome. While the injury was on his nondominant side, both arms are necessary to the smooth flow of the shot."

This doesn't even take into account that Pacquiao shoots incorrectly with his right arm going back too far and shooting partially with his right hand.


THE END

[Lester Tutor]

It was a very good fight by both fighters but Manny was just better.

Then you cannot say that you like Floyd for his boxing or his offensive output because that would then qualify for a word that is much worse than snoozefest.

yeah but at NSB anything you try to justify is boring.

[ADP02]

You really have to stop with your delusion. It's embarrassing at this point. I've trashed all of your points a billion times now, so I don't know why you feel it's necessary to keep posting the same things.

1. You have no credibility when trying to defend Manny based on what his doctors said because I've listed about 12 quotations from you stating that any Floyd fan that believes what his doctors say are naive. You can't have it both ways. This is what we call being a hypocrite.

2. Your made up stories about what Pac did are not believable. First you said he did some rehab with a therapist and later decided to do it all himself. Now you are saying he did it all himself. His quotation clearly states that he NEVER saw a doctor and NEVER went to rehab. That would mean he was rehabbing himself, as you stated, and try to say it was aquatic rehab with no proof. How did he learn aquatic rehab if he never saw a doctor. Furthermore, his quotation also said ALL HE DID WAS SWIM. I posted around 11 medical documents that prohibit swimming for at least the first 3 months, and it was at that point that he said his wound was healed and he was shown in a video playing basketball. You try to explain away this by saying he didn't swim at all. That means you believe he is a liar, right? Then we agree. He is a liar.

3. The doctor talked about the degree of the tear. What is your point? He also gave the time frame for recovery. I posted many documents about the timeframe for recovery.

4. You keep stating you debunked the picture and others of my support. You should go and learn what "debunk" means, because of the information I gave in this entire thread, you have not debunked one thing.

5. You don't address what you see in the pictures of him playing basketball at all. I understand why you want to avoid that.

TELL ME, DO YOU NOT SEE WHAT HIS RIGHT SHOULDER IS DOING????


Finally, just to reiterate about what you wrote in red:

HE REHABBED HIMSELF FOR 3 MONTHS BY SWIMMING!!!

[B]"Swimming plays no role in the rehabilitation program for people with rotator cuff injuries and, second, swimmers are at risk of getting rotator cuff injuries because the shoulders play such an important role in swimming strokes."


THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU SAID YOU DEBUNKED, CORRECT? NOW HOW DID YOU DEBUNK ALL OF THE MEDICAL DOCUMENTS I LISTED ABOVE? OH, THAT'S RIGHT. YOU SAID MANNY DIDN'T SWIM.

WRONG

1) The problem is more than likely this: You take quotes and are not flexible. I can tell that its intentional because you DO NOT TALK THAT WAY WHEN IT COMES TO FLOYD!!!

Believing a doctor?
All doctors and in fact all humans can and do lie. Got that? But did this doctor lie? My reasoning is why would he?

With Manny, we actually have the doctors name and know that he is a very well known doctor who is associated with multiple professional teams. He had more to lose than gain if a lie would come out. So its less likely that lying would be enticing for the doctor. Also, Manny would be getting 2nd opionions from other doctors instead of the doctor in question. If it was a lie, would you not just go to the same doctor instead of having others examine?

Listed among the “Best Doctors in America,” named a “Super Surgeon” by Baseball Prospectus, and voted a “Super Doctor” Dr. Neal S. ElAttrache specializes in orthopedic surgical procedures involving the shoulder, hip and knee and is a member of the Kerlan-Jobe Orthopaedic Clinic Board of Directors.

He is active in a number of professional organizations.

He had worked on well know people. For example:
•Tom Brady
•Kobe Bryant
•Russell Westrbrook
•Zack Greinke
•Arnold Schwarzenegger

Southern California Super Doctors 2008 to 2016


So the above is already a good reason but I went and checked up other factors, as one should do. I checked up studies, again, other doctors examined Manny and so on. Using the evidence on hand, what Manny did was all possible. Imagine, even Teddy Atlas is not agreeing with you!

Plus, why lie on the extent of the injury? There was no trial or no cheating. NOTHING. Floyd on the other hand was so that he can use a banned method and get consent for a doctor after the fact and most probably to mask PEDs. Plus, there was no doctor who came forward.





2) We BOTH do not know a lot of things about Manny and what he really did .... so there is certain speculation from both sides. BUT the point is that Manny said he did his own rehab. A doctor examines you. He does not always tell you what exercises to do. Sometimes he does. I have gone to doctors who did and some who did not and say to get that from your PT. What the doctor tells you can even conflict with what the PT tells you.
The doctor may have given him a list of things to do before Manny left the office or perhaps gave him access to certain information. For example, online access that is given to his patients. Or perhaps when Manny was doing passive rehab they gave him the schedule for the first 12-16 weeks.

So you asked me a question. Like I said before, I do not know!!! So do not do like you always do and say that I'm speculating. I'm just pointing out that the possibility is there for Manny to do it on his own. Its not rocket science. I did the same after 1 or 2 sessions of rehab that I didn't think were useful for me. I incorporated some stuff they did tell me to do at home and other things that I felt were good for me and got some info from the internet. There is no big secret here like you think.


"Can rehabilitation be done at home?

In general the exercises are best performed by the patient at home. Occasional visits to the surgeon or therapist may be useful to check the progress and to review the program."


Your 11 documents mean NOTHING unless you have proof of what Manny did that connects to those 11 documents. I keep on asking you: Do you have anything? Your non response means NO!!! So that means you are just throwing something that hopefully sticks. THat is a sad way to try to prove something.

Swimming: You also thought Manny was holding a flag, said NO REHAB and you thought it meant no self rehab. Same goes with swimming. I can bet that there is a lot more people who would say that they went swimming in the water and not do what's in those 11 documents. I showed you several examples of that. AGAIN. Did Manny do what I'm saying? I do not know what he did but my point is that Manny can go swimming and not do something to aggreavate his right shoulder.

I showed you a few videos. One of someone doing rehab for rotator cuff while swimming. Was there a conflict with those 11 documents? NO!!!!

There is a video of Manny swimming. He used his fins in that instance. Was there a conflict with those 11 documents? NO!!!! BUT Manny also said he did self rehab. Put 1 + 1 and it will be 2.


Man, I gave you 2 examples but there is a lot more!!!! So again, what Manny did was possible and you have NOTHING!!! Yet I'm delusional?

Delusional/speculation: We had a lot more information with Floyd. We also knew what Dr Alex Ariza said but you wanted 100% of the information. You would tell us that to judge Floyd without all the information is being delusional and we are just speculating. Right? Now what are you doing here?




3)

""Very good, very healthy. So all those things that we really look for to determine seriousness or severity were not there for Manny. " - Dr ElAttrache"


Doctor is telling you the response to your question about it being a full thickness tear:
"Condition of the tissue, can it be replaced to the area it was torn, health of muscle and bone.
You can have a large tear but if quality of tissue, muscle and bone is good then the size of the tear can sometimes be of secondary concern."

Studies concur that some may have a full thickness tear or even massive tear but have a better response/healing than someone with something that was supposedly not as severe if just going by the size of the tear (eg. partial tear) BUT in fact was more severe and or just took longer to heal.




4) Wrong: You said that Manny did no rehab. You kept on repeating that. Before that article, Manny stated that he did self rehab. So just like with this, your problem is that you are stuck on the words and lost.

Manny did what his body allowed him to do at a given time. Manny could move his arm, as an example. Some others cannot but that does not mean that what Manny did was impossible.

The problem is that Manny is not here to respond to the questioning but as I pointed out already, he does not care (example, holding the flag picture).

People in his team questioned his no show at for the doctor/rehab in LA. Manny showed a video to Arum of his self rehab that you kept on saying Manny was not doing and said, as you pointed out, AMAZING!

[ADP02]

EXACTLY !!

1) the injury was visible during the fight
2) Mayweather mentioned it to his corner
3) his corner was seen working on the shoulder between rounds
4) Mayweather stopped using that arm
5) the injury was acknowledged immediately

None of that applied to Pac.

Thanks for providing that contrasting example of a REAL injury

greenK

We are discussing severity as the TS thinks there was an injury to Manny but not a full thickness tear. I read your points 1-5. Still do not get where you point out confirmation that Floyd had a torn rotator cuff. Maybe it was just a bruise. Right?

1. Lets see a picture of Floyd's injury? I saw a red mark on Manny shoulder
2. Did Floyd mention it was torn? Manny's corner confirmed that Manny did say it in the corner after the 4th round.
3. Massaging a torn shoulder? That would help? Why did they not do it every round if it helped so much?
4. Floyd used that arm more in that fight than his 2nd fight with Castillo and also more than many of his other fights.
5. By who, Floyd? Roger?

Where was Floyd's doctor who confirmed that it was torn?

Most importantly, Floyd was discussing with Arum most probably in May for his August 20th fight with Castillo. That was maybe 1 month after surgery. Please explain how Floyd can be discussing a fight at that point in time


Oh wait, you are the guy that said that you cannot raise your arm, throw punches and so on. Go check out Floyd vs Castillo. Lots of that happening!!!

Green K my way ..... I corrected your statements!