HBO only offering $1 Million for Walters-Lomanchenko?

[brettWall]

Wow. This guy got a spin for everything. And he's taking this "Haymon taking over boxing" thing way too seriously. For a while I thought he is just day- dreaming. Now he really thinks it's going to happen. It's a fantasy.

HBO boxing is not going to go away. Fact that its not their main bread and butter. It is just bonus to their subscribers, who sign up not because of boxing, but because of their regular programming.

Fact is HBO has already been decapitated, thus marginalized long time ago, when Schaefer took all his fighters with him to Showtime. They may have 2-3 stars right now, but that's about it. I see no reason why Haymon can't implement whatever the hell he wants to. On paper the Haymon monopoly should have already been happening. He's still got Showtime on his side.

Hellooo!! Canelo and Golovkin are not the only fighters you can make stars of. There are literally hundreds of fighters around the world! Which means HBO is irrelevant in the overall grand scheme of things. Haymon doesn't have to wait for its total disappearance. Man, that would take decades.

Reason why Haymon will never succeed is because he's too scared to pit his top fighters against each other. He could have made Khan vs Thurman, for example, which is the more competitive fight than Canelo/Khan. And it would have generated the same interest, if not more. But he didn't.

Matthysse vs Broner could have been made easily, considering Broner called the guy out and Matthysse response, "I hope he's not joking." Interesting part was both were undercards in 2 events fighting other fighters after their respective defeats vs Maidana and Garcia. Finally, the nail was finally hammered on the coffin when Matthysse decided to sign back to GBP. Will we ever see Matthysse vs Broner getting made. No. It's gone forever.

Fast rewind, Guerrero confronted Broner in a parking lot calling his bluff. It ended with Broner saying, "Send me the contract over and I'll sign it." Did anything happen? None. If these guys were UFC fighters, Dana White would have taken advantage of that incident and capitalized on it as a promotional goldmine.

There are just few examples among many.

It became clear that this Haymon personality is just about showcasing stars fighting cab drivers. It's similar to movies where the hero defeats the villain and gets the girl.

With or without HBO I don't think things will change much.

[original zero]

One Punch -

Because you have such a negative attitude, your perception of what others say (and what you say) has become completely warped.

If we're analyzing strategies for building a business, I do think somebody's experience building businesses is relevant. But what's bizarre is how hung up you are on the fact that I've built successful businesses in different industries. You've mentioned it far more than I ever have and you mention it in threads where it has nothing to do with what's being discussed.

But it's the bitterness from you that has become so overwhelming it taints almost everything you post. Do you not see how poorly you come across when you claim that a business man wouldn't lose any sleep over the success or lack thereof of his company simply because he's taken on an investor? It doesn't make any sense and is just pure sour g****s on your part.

If you brought in a partner and the two of you opened ten more furniture stores, on their dime, in exchange for you ending up with a smaller stake in your company, would you suddenly not care how your stores are performing simply because you own a smaller percentage of 11 stores instead of 100% of one store?

You're just not using any common sense. In every post, I address all of your points, meanwhile you largely ignore the substance of the discussion to focus on insults and personal attacks.

YOU are the one that has been attacking the messenger instead of the message. You then blamed it on something I said on page 18, but you were doing it on page 10. I'm telling you man, you've become so negative that you don't even remember what you've said anymore. You just attack anyone that dare challenge one of your positions.

Yes UFC was able to buy up a lot of the talent. Which is what Haymon is trying to do. But what you're ignoring is that in sports, a monopoly is good for fans. Fans prefer it.

So when you claim it's only good for the owner, that's simply not true.

And when you look at what athletes are getting paid under the monopoly system in the major leagues, salaries exploded after the mergers that created unified leagues for fans to follow.

I'm not saying you should prefer a monopoly, but you're 100% wrong when you claim that only the owner benefits. Sports are only valuable if the public cares and the public cares a lot more when they feel the best are in one place and facing each other regularly.

Haymon doesn't need to take over the entire sport worldwide. All he needs to do is create an umbrella that can sell its TV rights for more than what HBO was paying. Being one of many HBO talent suppliers, with their shrinking budget, was going to be very limiting. What do you honestly think Al's portion of the HBO budget would be at this point?

I conservatively estimate that even if he had the same HBO leverage he used to have, he'd be ending up with maybe $15 million of their $24 million budget.

So as long as he can get someone to pony up more than $15 million for PBC, he made the right move leaving HBO.

If you don't think he'll be able to get a rights deal, I'd be happy to discuss it. You are the one that is absolutely determined to keep things focused on some lame ego contest. Maybe what I've said has hit a little too close to home. There is no question over the last year you've become incredibly negative in your interactions with pretty much everyone.

Nobody is complaining about your opinions. I'm complaining about your attitude. Big difference. You seem incapable of having a respectful discussion, which is a shame as I used to always enjoy our chats. If you're going through some real life struggles that have caused this negative turn, I hope you feel better man. For years I thought you were always a class act. This descent has been sad to watch.



Joe Man -

Al doesn't need HBO boxing to go away. He just needs their promoters stranded on an Island and he needs their budget to shrink. New talent will continue to sign with him because he'll have the dates and the HBO universe will slowly fade into irrelevance.

I don't think Haymon is scared of anything, but clearly his strategy is to protect his guys, accumulate the largest possible army of world champions and then try to cash in with a paid network deal. Doesn't make sense to match up all his guys before then.

We've seen TR marginalized because they had no choice but to sacrifice their guys. Haymon has the luxury of waiting to do that.

But to me, you lose an incredible amount of credibility when you claim Thurman-Khan would have generated the same amount of interest, if not more, than Canelo-Khan.

That is so far off base and so ridiculous to say that I really can't take you seriously. Thurman-Khan would bomb on PPV. Canelo-Khan will sell hundreds of thousands PPV purchases. There's no comparison whatsoever.

Look, you should prefer whatever you prefer. To you or I, Thurman-Khan is a more interesting fight. But the problem here is that fans often confuse their personal preference for what would be financially prudent.

The truth is that the fights that will appeal to the most people are often very different than the fights that will appeal to the hardcore boxing nerd posting on message boards.



Mitchell Kane -

If Haymon is successful, yes it would mean that those huge PPV paydays would be a thing of the past. Which would effect 2-3 guys tops at any point and eventually wouldn't matter anyway as PPV is an antiquated business model and will die off at some point regardless.

However, if Haymon is successful, yes the elite 2-3 guys won't be able to earn what was possible before, but #4-100 will be making more than they would have in the old system.

If, just as an example, FOX ends up offering $50 million a year for PBC, that is a lot more money to go around to Al's stable than there would have been being an HBO promoter and getting a slice of their shrinking pie.

It's too early to say if Al's plan will work, I just personally find it laughable when laymen are so quick to dismiss his chances when he's been so successful for so long in multiple industries.

[al-Xander]

Yes UFC was able to buy up a lot of the talent. Which is what Haymon is trying to do. But what you're ignoring is that in sports, a monopoly is good for fans. Fans prefer it.

People need to stop comparing Boxing to UFC, or vise versa. UFC fans are consistent. They may watch one or two boring fights here and there, but they're not going to go away. Not to mention there are 10 - 12 fight cards in one event. So there's plenty of fights fans get excited about, as opposed to 5 max in boxing. UFC fans are fans for life no matter what. Therefore, the income it generates is consistent. It's no different from WWE/WWF even though fans knew it's fake.

The solution to me is a boxing network where fight cards are covered all around the world, aside from the locally-produced ones. If they can do that, then I might go back signing for a subscription.

Of course, they can't cover events happening at the same time, but fans are fans. They'll watch replays or on delayed telecast.

[original zero]

People need to stop comparing Boxing to UFC, or vise versa. UFC fans are consistent. They may watch one or two boring fights here and there, but they're not going to go away. Not to mention there are 10 - 12 fight cards in one event. So there's plenty of fights fans get excited about, as opposed to 5 max in boxing. UFC fans are fans for life no matter what. Therefore, the income it generates is consistent. It's no different from WWE/WWF even though fans knew it's fake.

The solution to me is a boxing network where fight cards are covered all around the world, aside from the locally-produced ones. If they can do that, then I might go back signing for a subscription.

Of course, they can't cover events happening at the same time, but fans are fans. They'll watch replays or on delayed telecast.

Why would I stop comparing boxing to UFC (or wrestling for that matter)? They're all in the business of trying to get people interested in fights. There is no better comparison.

[daggum]

are walters and lomachenko huge draws and get huge ratings? what am i missing? they were simply overpaid in the past. doens't mean hbo should continue to make the same mistake in the present. ggg makes more because he draws more fans and better ratings. too simple?

and yes the pbc has a short term plan of overpaying their fighters massively and losing money but hbo can't play that game with them since they don't have the budget. they are just waiting for the pbc to either go away or for the pbc to destroy them. even if hbo does fail there is not enough money in the pbc/showtime combined to pay all these fighters those huge salaries so unfortunately we just have to wait until the money runs out.

[PKing]

are walters and lomachenko huge draws and get huge ratings? what am i missing? they were simply overpaid in the past. doens't mean hbo should continue to make the same mistake in the present. ggg makes more because he draws more fans and better ratings. too simple?

and yes the pbc has a short term plan of overpaying their fighters massively and losing money but hbo can't play that game with them since they don't have the budget. they are just waiting for the pbc to either go away or for the pbc to destroy them. even if hbo does fail there is not enough money in the pbc/showtime combined to pay all these fighters those huge salaries so unfortunately we just have to wait until the money runs out.

Rigondeaux made $750k against Donaire.

[al-Xander]

Why would I stop comparing boxing to UFC (or wrestling for that matter)? They're all in the business of trying to get people interested in fights. There is no better comparison.

Man, stop this nonsense. They're different. You can see this in your own everyday surroundings. Boxing have semblance of thriving because of casuals. Which means the income will always be inconsistent. The friends you normally watch with will not always be there for you. There are so many moments in boxing where it's just boring to watch. UFC is just vastly different for regular people where anything can happen in a split second, so viewers are always glued and focused. In boxing, after 3-4 rounds of potshotting and posturing, the entire fight is pretty much determined. Yawning will start, your buddies will start to find excuse and want to leave.

Stop this fantasy.

[kidbazooka]

Hbo knows they need a Mexican fighter.

These guys bring no money.

Hbo misses the Barreras, morales, Vasquez, Marquez of those divisions.

[daggum]

Rigondeaux made $750k against Donaire.

are walters and lomachenko huge draws and get huge ratings? what am i missing? they were simply overpaid in the past. doens't mean hbo should continue to make the same mistake in the present. ggg makes more because he draws more fans and better ratings. too simple?

did you miss this part? also i'm not sure that even applies to the donaire-rigo fight since donaire was a semi-draw when they fought so of course rigo's purse would be high. neither walters nor loma are draws so where would the money come from? 2 no draws=not a big fight in reality. yes we have been conditioned to seeing fighters overpaid but like i said in my original post just because it was done in the past doesn't mean they should continue to do it.

[original zero]

Man, stop this nonsense. They're different. You can see this in your own everyday surroundings. Boxing have semblance of thriving because of casuals. Which means the income will always be inconsistent. The friends you normally watch with will not always be there for you. There are so many moments in boxing where it's just boring to watch. UFC is just vastly different for regular people where anything can happen in a split second, so viewers are always glued and focused. In boxing, after 3-4 rounds of potshotting and posturing, the entire fight is pretty much determined. Yawning will start, your buddies will start to find excuse and want to leave.

There are obviously differences, but what draws money in boxing, wrestling or martial arts isn't really that different. At the end of the day you're setting up a conflict between two personalities so that people will want to see the resolution.

Some may prefer to watch one style of fighting over another, but it's ridiculous to suggest a comparison can't be made or that one can't learn from the other.

And if anybody is ever going to get a major network to cough up big time money for a TV deal, they're going to have to organize a UFC style league. Obviously Haymon realizes this. Whether he can actually pull it off or not . . . it's too soon to say. We shall see.