who among suspected PED user got away the most: Pacquaio, Mayweather or Marquez?

[travestyny]

You are confused. Rehab means to work on the injured area.

Again, let's keep this simple. I read your response and responded to it entirely, but I think this conversation would be better with a less is more approach so I've condensed my response.

1. Are you saying that Manny was talking about God healing his scar when he gave the sea water comment? You conveniently left this out of your response. I wonder why. Be honest and also explain what the hell you base this on.

2. Do you believe that doing activities that doctors say can lead to rotator cuff tears is OK to do while you are recovering from rotator cuff surgery? To be more specific, do you believe this is ok up to 3 months after surgery for a full thickness rotator cuff tear? (Also, are you aware of what "swimmer's shoulder" is?)

3. Are you saying that Floyd could not have been dehydrated because he doesn't rehydrate 15 pounds?

I'll leave it at that for now.

[ADP02]

Again, let's keep this simple. I read your response and responded to it entirely, but I think this conversation would be better with a less is more approach so I've condensed my response.

1. Are you saying that Manny was talking about God healing his scar when he gave the sea water comment? You conveniently left this out of your response. I wonder why. Be honest and also explain what the hell you base this on.

2. Do you believe that doing activities that doctors say can lead to rotator cuff tears is OK to do while you are recovering from rotator cuff surgery? To be more specific, do you believe this is ok up to 3 months after surgery for a full thickness rotator cuff tear? (Also, are you aware of what "swimmer's shoulder" is?)

3. Are you saying that Floyd could not have been dehydrated because he doesn't rehydrate 15 pounds?

I'll leave it at that for now.

1. You would have to talk to Manny to know exactly what he meant. I was thinking of what my mother used to tell me whenever we went to the oceon or sea. Right or WRONG, and NOT because she was lying, she would say something similar to what Manny said. That sea water is the****utic and heals. So maybe that is where he is getting his lines from. Like I told you, he used to have pain. He had surgery, he was not feeling the pain, and said he was healed and thanks God just like he thanks God for everything he says, good or bad. In this case, it was good.

but later when the doctors examined him, they said he was progressing well but he still needed to be careful with strenous type activities. That is when Manny had knowledge that he was not at 100% even though he may have felt 100%.


2. So now you finally got it. The video is telling you which activities can produce the injury not tha tyou need to entirely stay away from those activities after surgery .... BUT when you do rehab at 2-3 months, you may be able to do some activities but not the same type of strenous workout that you would do or apply when you, as an elite athlete, would do once its completely healed and you have the go ahead. Of course, its different for every person and in some cases, it should be totally avoided. They have a disclaimer on their websites that say that. Talk to your doctor to know what you should do and not do.

Like I said, there is a risk and that is what the doctor tells Manny and others if they do certain activities. THat is, it can get reinjured but then its up to Manny to follow the program properly or not. You are seeing that it was risky. Perhaps it was but Manny felt it was OK because he did it.

Not sure how athletic you are now or you were in the past. Well, I have played with injuries. Often with no meds. People recommended that I do not do any activity ..... I took the risk. Was it a mistake? Of course but at the time, I thought differently, right or wrong and that was with even a bad injury so I'm not talking about rehab. Then there are other times that I listened to the doctor and did exactly what he told me. BUT this happens all the time in sports. The doctor gives you advice and sometimes even with taking all the precautions, you still come back and reinjure yourself. I know that and none of that is a lie.

Like I said, I'm no expert in rotator cuff injuries nor are you.

Manny's doctor I read didn't just do Kobe Bryant's operation. This guy has done plenty of athletes that we know of and more. He is very wealthy, I'm sure and has lots of gigs that he didn't need to put his reputation on the line. Go check it out if you do not believe me. Furthermore, Manny went to see him BEFORE the fight and the doctor prescribed him various meds. Its even in the pre-fight form. Manny also had done an MRI and a tear was present. Just like Kobe Bryant said, he had this way before but still played with it. Manny felt good enough to fight but then it got worse in the fight. Just like Kobe described it too. The thing is that after his doctor recommended surgery after the examination and MRI results. The doctor was interviewed and said that the surgery went fine and recommended that Manny not do any boxing activites for at least 6 months and not fight for 9-12 months. All that happened. Then Manny went to other doctors who examined him and they did not say "I see no injury".

Just by looking at the facts, I believe that Manny did have surgery you think not. While I didn't see MRIs, they supposedly do exist but still, I have a renowned surgeon on my side plus a 2nd opinion from another doctor. You? You are no expert in this field so its hard to base it on your internet findings because I see gaps in your findings. If your opinion differed from mine, that is OK but you have been very different in your approach with Manny vs FLoyd. THat is hard to swallow.


3. I have a much better understanding in this area and I'm sure you do to. I have already told you that Floyd was more than likely just mildly dehydrated. So he just needed to drink orally and he did. We witnessed him occassionally sipping on that bottle enough to get rehydrated.

Floyd was also able to drink orally and drank enough to get close enough to normal that he was more than likely no longer what one would call clinically dehydrated. Still, there was nothing stopping him from drinking a bit more. Plus take into account that he still needed to eat, after the weigh in, and he said he "ate alot" to get himself back to his fight night weight. It was just a few pounds so its quite an unbelievable story that he needed an IV. All studies, NSAC, USADA, WADA say what I have said. You on the other hand have nothing. Plus we have actual information on Floyd from 30 days out to his vital signs just before the IV. All normal and stable!

Studies show that drinking 600ml of plain water will rehydrate you in 45 minutes if you are mildly dehydrated.
That is pretty much what we all witnessed that day after the weigh in. So it is a slam dunk!!!



.

[travestyny]

Thanks for replying to my questions. Now let's look at some evidence contrary to your replies.

1. You would have to talk to Manny to know exactly what he meant. I was thinking of what my mother used to tell me whenever we went to the oceon or sea. Right or WRONG, and NOT because she was lying, she would say something similar to what Manny said. That sea water is the****utic and heals. So maybe that is where he is getting his lines from. Like I told you, he used to have pain. He had surgery, he was not feeling the pain, and said he was healed and thanks God just like he thanks God for everything he says, good or bad. In this case, it was good.

Logically, what you wrote here doesn't make sense. First of all, I already mentioned what you already know, that arthroscopic surgery doesn't leave a major scar. The scar is just 3 dots. So how can you believe that he is talking about his scar???

Second, there are a plethora of websites that interpret this differently than you do. In fact, I have never, ever read anywhere that someone interprets his statement to be about healing his scar. Here is one example:

"On August 12, it was reported by the Philippine Star that popular Congressman and ring legend Manny Pacquiao not only fully recovered from a torn rotator cuff, but miraculously rehabilitated his surgically repaired shoulder by an unlikely combination of divine intervention and the****utic ocean water." - See more at: http://www.fightsaga.com/news/item/5....Fmoqb5bn.dpuf

Don't you think it's odd that so many different sources mention this one way, and you are the only person that interprets it a completely different way?

Lastly, this is from his business manager that was in Tokyo with him when he gave the statement:

"Pacquiao’s business manager Eric Pineda, who was also in Tokyo, called it a miraculous recovery. “Manny has strong faith,” he said. “God did it. And all that swimming in the sea helped. Now, there’s talk of his comeback fight.”

My question to you is this:
Using logic, doesn't it seem that he is NOT talking about the scar being healed?

but later when the doctors examined him, they said he was progressing well but he still needed to be careful with strenous type activities. That is when Manny had knowledge that he was not at 100% even though he may have felt 100%.

If I'm not mistaken, that was said in October. At that point, he was already waving a flag over his head, swimming (did you look up swimmer's shoulder), and playing basketball. You seriously don't find this narrative to be a reaction to the backlash from his seawater and god comment? That's fine if you don't, because the damaging evidence is in his actions before this period, which you discuss next.

2. So now you finally got it. The video is telling you which activities can produce the injury not tha tyou need to entirely stay away from those activities after surgery .... BUT when you do rehab at 2-3 months, you may be able to do some activities but not the same type of strenous workout that you would do or apply when you, as an elite athlete, would do once its completely healed and you have the go ahead.

Just by looking at the facts, I believe that Manny did have surgery you think not. While I didn't see MRIs, they supposedly do exist but still, I have a renowned surgeon on my side plus a 2nd opinion from another doctor. You? You are no expert in this field so its hard to base it on your internet findings because I see gaps in your findings. If your opinion differed from mine, that is OK but you have been very different in your approach with Manny vs FLoyd. THat is hard to swallow.

You kind of side stepped the question. I asked if swimming can cause rotator cuff injury, how can it be used at 1 month as the Main and ONLY form of rehabilitation. That doesn't make any sense. Your response basically said he took a chance. Why didn't he take this surgery seriously???? He didn't rehab for 3 months besides swimming which can do more harm than good, especially at that point.I've provided numerous sources that say when swimming can be returned to AFTER THIS SURGERY.

But you said you have a doctor on your side, so how about this:

“He seems like he's fine…physically,” Arum told the Telegraph UK. "The doctor here was amazed when he saw pictures of his movement and everything…The doctor says he's got to see it himself.”

Doesn't this point out that the doctor, knowing what he knows about the condition of Manny's ligaments, still did not believe that he should be at that state of recovery? Again, he is amazed and has to see it himself! Do you see how the "it's a miracle" dialogue persists even through the doctor's assessment?

Furthermore, I find it strange that in this video on ESPN the reporter claims to have talked to Dr. Neal ElAttrache and yet she reports that Manny had a PARTIAL ROTATOR CUFF TEAR. In the other video, Dr. ElAttrache clearly states that he had a full thickness rotator cuff tear. Not only that, but he said it was 1 to 1.5 tendons. How did a reporter talk to the doctor and get this wrong? More miscommunication about this mysterious injury.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12849868

3. I have a much better understanding in this area and I'm sure you do to. I have already told you that Floyd was more than likely just mildly dehydrated. So he just needed to drink orally and he did. We witnessed him occassionally sipping on that bottle enough to get rehydrated.

Floyd was also able to drink orally and drank enough to get close enough to normal that he was more than likely no longer what one would call clinically dehydrated. Still, there was nothing stopping him from drinking a bit more. Plus take into account that he still needed to eat, after the weigh in, and he said he "ate alot" to get himself back to his fight night weight. It was just a few pounds so its quite an unbelievable story that he needed an IV. All studies, NSAC, USADA, WADA say what I have said. You on the other hand have nothing. Plus we have actual information on Floyd from 30 days out to his vital signs just before the IV. All normal and stable!

Studies show that drinking 600ml of plain water will rehydrate you in 45 minutes if you are mildly dehydrated.
That is pretty much what we all witnessed that day after the weigh in. So it is a slam dunk!!!

I've already given you this and asked you to address it. You claimed you did, so I clarified the significance of my question and asked you again, but you didn't respond.

WADA said this:
"It is the responsibility of the supervising physician to evaluate the medical legitimacy of the clinical indication for any TUE application involving the use of IV infusion. Oral rehydration is usually highly effective, yet there may be cases such as documented hyponatremia where hypertonic saline by IV is more effective than oral treatments."

This statement makes it clear that a person being capable of drinking does not ensure that it is more effective than using an IV.

Now, knowing that you have the burden of proof, do you have any information on whether Mayweather experienced any condition that would make saline by IV more effective than oral treatment? In my opinion, this is the single most important information that determines if USADA was right or wrong in allowing Mayweather to have the IV. If we don't have this information, no conclusion can be drawn. It's as simple as that. Do you agree or disagree?

[ADP02]

Thanks for replying to my questions. Now let's look at some evidence contrary to your replies.


Logically, what you wrote here doesn't make sense. First of all, I already mentioned what you already know, that arthroscopic surgery doesn't leave a major scar. The scar is just 3 dots. So how can you believe that he is talking about his scar???

Second, there are a plethora of websites that interpret this differently than you do. In fact, I have never, ever read anywhere that someone interprets his statement to be about healing his scar. Here is one example:

"On August 12, it was reported by the Philippine Star that popular Congressman and ring legend Manny Pacquiao not only fully recovered from a torn rotator cuff, but miraculously rehabilitated his surgically repaired shoulder by an unlikely combination of divine intervention and the****utic ocean water." - See more at: http://www.fightsaga.com/news/item/5....Fmoqb5bn.dpuf

Don't you think it's odd that so many different sources mention this one way, and you are the only person that interprets it a completely different way?

Lastly, this is from his business manager that was in Tokyo with him when he gave the statement:

"Pacquiao’s business manager Eric Pineda, who was also in Tokyo, called it a miraculous recovery. “Manny has strong faith,” he said. “God did it. And all that swimming in the sea helped. Now, there’s talk of his comeback fight.”

My question to you is this:
Using logic, doesn't it seem that he is NOT talking about the scar being healed?

Like I told you, you would have to talk to Manny to know exactly what he meant.

So a belief does not make sense? It may be incorrect but its what they believe in. Neither of us is going to change Manny's belief. Lots of people believe that going in the sea gives them a the****utic effect. Mostly skin related but yes, even more than that.
Manny felt good. If he was serious about the comment (see Roach), then as you posted, it's Manny's belief. Lots of people believe in God. Manny is not the only one. God can do anything and if you believe in God you may say what Manny said.

Roach though said Manny was not serious (see below) when he said that comment and said he spoke to his doctor and Manny was doing rehab.

If I'm not mistaken, that was said in October. At that point, he was already waving a flag over his head, swimming (did you look up swimmer's shoulder), and playing basketball. You seriously don't find this narrative to be a reaction to the backlash from his seawater and god comment? That's fine if you don't, because the damaging evidence is in his actions before this period, which you discuss next.

Was Manny swimming as if he was training for the Olympics? How was he swimming? I can say that my son went swimming but guess what? He just plays in the water.
Was he throwing the basketball by putting all the force on his injured shoulder?
Was he waving the flag like there is no tomorrow? Was he waving while using force on his left or right arm?

As stated, the risk was there even when Manny came back to fight Bradley but Manny felt he can take those risks. Some athletes come back too soon but its not because they lied. Some even got the go ahead from their doctors.

You kind of side stepped the question. I asked if swimming can cause rotator cuff injury, how can it be used at 1 month as the Main and ONLY form of rehabilitation. That doesn't make any sense. Your response basically said he took a chance. Why didn't he take this surgery seriously???? He didn't rehab for 3 months besides swimming which can do more harm than good, especially at that point.I've provided numerous sources that say when swimming can be returned to AFTER THIS SURGERY.
But you said you have a doctor on your side, so how about this:

“He seems like he's fine…physically,” Arum told the Telegraph UK. "The doctor here was amazed when he saw pictures of his movement and everything…The doctor says he's got to see it himself.”

Doesn't this point out that the doctor, knowing what he knows about the condition of Manny's ligaments, still did not believe that he should be at that state of recovery? Again, he is amazed and has to see it himself! Do you see how the "it's a miracle" dialogue persists even through the doctor's assessment?

Furthermore, I find it strange that in this video on ESPN the reporter claims to have talked to Dr. Neal ElAttrache and yet she reports that Manny had a PARTIAL ROTATOR CUFF TEAR. In the other video, Dr. ElAttrache clearly states that he had a full thickness rotator cuff tear. Not only that, but he said it was 1 to 1.5 tendons. How did a reporter talk to the doctor and get this wrong? More miscommunication about this mysterious injury.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12849868

I responded above.

What Manny said was false since his doctor said otherwise (not fully healed). That is what you agree to as well. So what is your problem?

Manny felt good and his range of motion was good but like I said, Manny is left handed. That was like Kobe throwing with his left hand. Its not that amazing!

Its funny that you want to know what Floyd's dr Alex Ariza had to say, I mean Dr X but when Manny's doctor says something, you avoid it at all cost.
In late September, Manny went to see a doctor to get an expert opinion. What did Manny say after that visit? Manny did not say he was completely healed.


Partial? Initially some had reported it was a partial tear but unless someone asks her a direct question, we cannot know....

I've already given you this and asked you to address it. You claimed you did, so I clarified the significance of my question and asked you again, but you didn't respond.

WADA said this:
"It is the responsibility of the supervising physician to evaluate the medical legitimacy of the clinical indication for any TUE application involving the use of IV infusion. Oral rehydration is usually highly effective, yet there may be cases such as documented hyponatremia where hypertonic saline by IV is more effective than oral treatments."

This statement makes it clear that a person being capable of drinking does not ensure that it is more effective than using an IV.

Now, knowing that you have the burden of proof, do you have any information on whether Mayweather experienced any condition that would make saline by IV more effective than oral treatment? In my opinion, this is the single most important information that determines if USADA was right or wrong in allowing Mayweather to have the IV. If we don't have this information, no conclusion can be drawn. It's as simple as that. Do you agree or disagree?

Burden of proof is on you because everything points to it not being hyponatremia ..... where he required an IV.

Floyd was not dehydrated enough to warrant an IV and now you have ZERO on hyponatremia, like I expected.

Studies show that drinking 600ml of plain water will rehydrate you in 45 minutes if you are mildly dehydrated.
That is pretty much what we all witnessed that day after the weigh in. So it is a slam dunk!!!

Case closed!!!



"old" travestyny is BACK!!!
HOLY SH$T! How can you still go here? You have no MRI, nothing on Manny but with Floyd, you need 100% information before you can make up your mind?




Back to rotator cuff injuries:

Floyd fans did not like that Manny had an injury because Floyd did not do much against an injured Manny. So in retrospect, it was a bad performance by FLoyd.

So Floyd fans had to say the injury was fake. Floyd and his team reacted the same way.

BUT the same Floyd and his fans reacted just like that when he was criticized for his poor performance against Castillo I. Many threads were made over the years and FLoyd fans always came to the rescue for Floyd's poor performance.

So your next mystery to solve is, how could Floyd have fought Castillo again in the same year with a rotator cuff injury? Maybe it was not as bad as Manny but Floyd fans made it out to be really bad and some said that Floyd required surgery. Still, its funny how Floyd fans reacted differently. The Floyd fans need Manny's MRI and so on but need nothing when it comes to Floyd's injuries.


.

[ADP02]

Hahahahahahaha!! Bwahahahahaha
They really are first class fools of the highest order!
The pain lasts longer in slow motion. !!!

You may not know this but that guys is a Floyd fan that would have gone loony if it was Manny that was caught using something that was prohibited.

That guy had it SIGed that Manny had a few CWs while moving up several divisions ..... This guy was on a rampage with this CW. It's like he was possessed or something. He couldn't stop talking about it and went viral when Floyd fought Cotto and Floyd said what he said about CWs.

Forgetting that Marquez fight was at a CW where Floyd actually came 2lbs over ...... then Floyd, a 154 title holder, demanded that another 154 title holder to come down to a CW of 152 ...

Reloaded went into hiding for the longest time. Then he came back eventually and removed the CW SIGs.

Oh, and for Floyd's CWs, Reloaded has an excuse that its not as bad as Cotto's CW because Canelo fights at 154 ..... which is just crazy talk!

[Zaroku]

You may not know this but that guys is a Floyd fan that would have gone loony if it was Manny that was caught using something that was prohibited.

That guy had it SIGed that Manny had a few CWs while moving up several divisions ..... This guy was on a rampage with this CW. It's like he was possessed or something. He couldn't stop talking about it and went viral when Floyd fought Cotto and Floyd said what he said about CWs.

Forgetting that Marquez fight was at a CW where Floyd actually came 2lbs over ...... then Floyd, a 154 title holder, demanded that another 154 title holder to come down to a CW of 152 ...

Reloaded went into hiding for the longest time. Then he came back eventually and removed the CW SIGs.

Oh, and for Floyd's CWs, Reloaded has an excuse that its not as bad as Cotto's CW because Canelo fights at 154 ..... which is just crazy talk!

For the record!!! If you have a title, come in at whatever weight below the limit you want! good for you, but don't limit the other guy to anything less than the devision Max!

[travestyny]

So a belief does not make sense? Mostly skin related but yes, even more than that.

hahahaha. Is this your way of trying to sneak in that you know he didn't mean it was only about his scar, like you tried to say before. I knew you weren't that dumb. To clarify, what doesn't make sense is you claiming Pacquaio was referring to his scar being healed rather than the injury. All of the information given points to him saying the injury was healed, but you blatantly try to cover that up by saying it was about his scar. Based on all of the information about this statement, there is NOTHING that even hints that he is talking about the scar instead of the injury. If you can't admit that, well then it says a lot about you. However, I don't expect you to fess up about it since you won't admit you were wrong about the "or" situation, and seemed to not want to admit that you were wrong about the doctor stating that it was a full rotator cuff tear. Then when I proved it, you tried to flip it in your favor, not realizing that it shows how much more ridiculous this whole thing is since he showed no pain and never stopped throwing the right.

And now you say IF he was serious about it and show a video of Freddie Roach? Your desperation is astounding. Do you really think "IF" fits here? The deeply religious Manny Pacquaio joking about God healing him? This response shows clearly that you will say anything and everything to try to clear Pacquaio, but it surely doesn't fool anyone.

How was he swimming? I can say that my son went swimming but guess what? He just plays in the water.

More laughable bull**** from you. Did you really just mention your son playing in the water? This isn't about your son's kiddie pool. Manny was IN THE OCEAN and said the ONLY THING he did was swimming to rehab his shoulder. There is a video staring you in the face of him abruptly lifting his right arm over his head to shoot 3 pointers. There is a picture of him at 1 month with his arm raised above his head waving a flag. You know damn well if this was Floyd, you would call bull**** on all of this. Look how much evidence there is that this injury was not what he made it seem, and you dismiss all of it. Over and over again. From the time he was in the ring and showed no pain, didn't mention it, and never stopped using his right, to him waving a flag, failing to show up for rehab, swimming IN THE OCEAN, videos of him playing basketball, stating himself that he was fine...you want to talk about an open and shut case? Congratulations, you found it. You would have to be an absolute moron to dismiss all of this evidence placed right in front of your face. I know you're smarter than this, but you're too damn much of a Pacroach that you'd rather behave like a coward instead of accept what everyone else knows is clear. This shoulder was nothing more than an excuse for him losing. Period.

What Manny said was false

You're damn right what he said was false. Clearly more of it was false than you are willing to accept.

Its funny that you want to know what Floyd's dr Alex Ariza had to say, I mean Dr X but when Manny's doctor says something, you avoid it at all cost.

Avoid it at all costs? I gave you information from the man who did the surgery! He's amazed and has to see it for himself. Furthermore, if he's 80-90% in October, how the hell was he waving a flag and swimming in June and playing basketball in August, two of which have photographic or video evidence. BULL****! He said himself that he never went to rehab at the 3 month mark, yet Roach said he talked to the doctor that was doing rehab with him. DOESN'T THIS MAKE IT CLEAR THAT EVERYONE WAS TRYING TO COVER UP FOR HIM! His coach LIED! Why the hell would Roach call a doctor in the Philippines? Really??? Then he claims he is joking. They finally convince Manny to go have an MRI and they say he is improving, but he's already been swimming and playing basketball for months. BULL****!

Partial? Initially some had reported it was a partial tear but unless someone asks her a direct question, we cannot know....

A REPORTER who couldn't remember what information the doctor told her? BULL****. This is what you call people not being able to get their story straight.

Burden of proof is on you because everything points to it not being hyponatremia ..... where he required an IV.

You really don't understand how burden of proof works, do you? We've already gone through this, so don't try to say I have to prove hyponatremia. YOU have to prove he didn't have ANY condition that made an IV more relevant than oral rehydration, and your information DOES NOT show that. So you are right. Slam dunk that you failed.

Biggest proof that you failed: If this was a slam dunk, why did Manny drop the appeal to NSAC? Yea, I thought so.

"old" travestyny is BACK!!!
HOLY SH$T! How can you still go here? You have no MRI, nothing on Manny but with Floyd, you need 100% information before you can make up your mind?

You are being idiotic. There is HEAPS OF EVIDENCE that Pacquaio was not straight up about this injury and surgery.

1. HE LIED ABOUT IT, AND I SHOWED YOU THE QUOTES THAT SHOW HE LIED.
2. FREDDY ROACH LIED TO COVER UP ABOUT HIM NOT DOING REHAB.
3. HE SHOWED NO SIGN OF THIS INJURY DURING HIS PERFORMANCE.
4. HE DIDN'T GO TO REHAB WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO.
5. THERE IS VIDEO AND PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE THAT POINTS TO HIM BEING "RECOVERED" MUCH FASTER THAN ANYONE BELIEVED IT TO BE POSSIBLE TO THE POINT THAT THE SURGEON WAS AMAZED AND EVERYONE AROUND HIM WAS CALLING IT A MIRACLE.

I can go on with medical information, etc. But it's a waste of time. the point is all of this information is staring you in the face and you blatantly try to side step it. THIS is a slam dunk case. If this **** went to court, I know this would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If the Floyd IV scenario went to court, they would say they need the medical records because that is the ONLY THING that is relevant. You bring up his weight and NSAC, but the latter is irrelevant because NSAC has nothing to do with dehydration, and the former is irrelevant because we've already established that dehydration comes in various forms and it did not have to be severe dehydration as per the ISTUE. It had to be of a nature that it would significantly impair his health if untreated and it must be proven that the condition would make IV rehydration more relevant than oral rehydration. That's why you need the medical records. What video evidence do you have of Floyd? Him drinking water??? lol. HIs weight which shows he began at about 152 most likely and went down to 146, not knowing that this does not preclude him from being dehydrated?

"Symptoms of chronic dehydration will begin to appear when the body loses as little as two to three percent of total body water."

That right there already debunks your theory about his weight, so give it a rest, especially when the ISTUE states the condition can be chronic or acute. Furthermore, USADA states that a TUE should be granted from the time the chronic condition is first diagnosed. This already destroyed all of your so called evidence against Floyd, and the way you try to counter it is not by proof like I've hit you in the head over and over with about Pacquaio's supposed shoulder injury, but by saying "He didn't have that." Way to prove your case.

Back to rotator cuff injuries:

Floyd fans did not like that Manny had an injury because Floyd did not do much against an injured Manny. So in retrospect, it was a bad performance by FLoyd.

So Floyd fans had to say the injury was fake. Floyd and his team reacted the same way.

BUT the same Floyd and his fans reacted just like that when he was criticized for his poor performance against Castillo I.

how could Floyd have fought Castillo again in the same year with a rotator cuff injury? Maybe it was not as bad as Manny but Floyd fans made it out to be really bad and some said that Floyd required surgery. Still, its funny how Floyd fans reacted differently. The Floyd fans need Manny's MRI and so on but need nothing when it comes to Floyd's injuries.

Do you really need to know the difference between Floyd and Manny? Did you watch the fight? This is more idiocy from you. Floyd complained about his shoulder beginning in the 3rd round. He had it massaged in the corner and turned southpaw to deal with the injury. Manny did NONE OF THAT.

And by the way, no one is claiming that the injury was fake to explain Floyd's performance. How ironic that Pacroaches and Pacquaio himself claim it was real to explain HIS PERFORMANCE. People are saying it is fake (look around the internet at the amount of people who say it is clearly bull**** and give valid reasons why it is) because of ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT POINTS TO IT BEING BULL****. VIDEO, PHOTOS, STATEMENTS, LIES, LIES, AND MORE LIES. I'm done with this. Congratulations. You're the Pacroach of the decade, and this proves it. You're also an absolute moron if you can't understand what all of this evidence right in front of your face means.

Not that it matters to you, but I've completely lost respect for you. you are incapable of admitting when you are wrong. How many times did we prove to you that you were wrong about "or" and you still didn't admit it. We should have stopped talking right then and there.

[ADP02]

hahahaha. Is this your way of trying to sneak in that you know he didn't mean it was only about his scar, like you tried to say before. I knew you weren't that dumb. To clarify, what doesn't make sense is you claiming Pacquaio was referring to his scar being healed rather than the injury. All of the information given points to him saying the injury was healed, but you blatantly try to cover that up by saying it was about his scar. Based on all of the information about this statement, there is NOTHING that even hints that he is talking about the scar instead of the injury. .



More laughable bull**** from you. Did you really just mention your son playing in the water? This isn't about your son's kiddie pool. Manny was IN THE OCEAN and said the ONLY THING he did was swimming to rehab his shoulder. There is a video staring you in the face of him abruptly lifting his right arm over his head to shoot 3 pointers. There is a picture of him at 1 month with his arm raised above his head waving a flag. You know damn well if this was Floyd, you would call bull**** on all of this. Look how much evidence there is that this injury was not what he made it seem, and you dismiss all of it. Over and over again. From the time he was in the ring and showed no pain, didn't mention it, and never stopped using his right, to him waving a flag, failing to show up for rehab, swimming IN THE OCEAN, videos of him playing basketball, stating himself that he was fine...you want to talk about an open and shut case? Congratulations, you found it. You would have to be an absolute moron to dismiss all of this evidence placed right in front of your face. I know you're smarter than this, but you're too damn much of a Pacroach that you'd rather behave like a coward instead of accept what everyone else knows is clear. This shoulder was nothing more than an excuse for him losing. Period.


You're damn right what he said was false. Clearly more of it was false than you are willing to accept.


Avoid it at all costs? I gave you information from the man who did the surgery! He's amazed and has to see it for himself. Furthermore, if he's 80-90% in October, how the hell was he waving a flag and swimming in June and playing basketball in August, two of which have photographic or video evidence. BULL****! He said himself that he never went to rehab at the 3 month mark, yet Roach said he talked to the doctor that was doing rehab with him. DOESN'T THIS MAKE IT CLEAR THAT EVERYONE WAS TRYING TO COVER UP FOR HIM! His coach LIED! Why the hell would Roach call a doctor in the Philippines? Really??? Then he claims he is joking. They finally convince Manny to go have an MRI and they say he is improving, but he's already been swimming and playing basketball for months. BULL****!



A REPORTER who couldn't remember what information the doctor told her? BULL****. This is what you call people not being able to get their story straight.



You really don't understand how burden of proof works, do you? We've already gone through this, so don't try to say I have to prove hyponatremia. YOU have to prove he didn't have ANY condition that made an IV more relevant than oral rehydration, and your information DOES NOT show that. So you are right. Slam dunk that you failed.

Biggest proof that you failed: If this was a slam dunk, why did Manny drop the appeal to NSAC? Yea, I thought so.



You are being idiotic. There is HEAPS OF EVIDENCE that Pacquaio was not straight up about this injury and surgery.

1. HE LIED ABOUT IT, AND I SHOWED YOU THE QUOTES THAT SHOW HE LIED.
2. FREDDY ROACH LIED TO COVER UP ABOUT HIM NOT DOING REHAB.
3. HE SHOWED NO SIGN OF THIS INJURY DURING HIS PERFORMANCE.
4. HE DIDN'T GO TO REHAB WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO.
5. THERE IS VIDEO AND PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE THAT POINTS TO HIM BEING "RECOVERED" MUCH FASTER THAN ANYONE BELIEVED IT TO BE POSSIBLE TO THE POINT THAT THE SURGEON WAS AMAZED AND EVERYONE AROUND HIM WAS CALLING IT A MIRACLE.

I can go on with medical information, etc. But it's a waste of time. the point is all of this information is staring you in the face and you blatantly try to side step it. THIS is a slam dunk case. If this **** went to court, I know this would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If the Floyd IV scenario went to court, they would say they need the medical records because that is the ONLY THING that is relevant. You bring up his weight and NSAC, but the latter is irrelevant because NSAC has nothing to do with dehydration, and the former is irrelevant because we've already established that dehydration comes in various forms and it did not have to be severe dehydration as per the ISTUE. It had to be of a nature that it would significantly impair his health if untreated and it must be proven that the condition would make IV rehydration more relevant than oral rehydration. That's why you need the medical records. What video evidence do you have of Floyd? Him drinking water??? lol. HIs weight which shows he began at about 152 most likely and went down to 146, not knowing that this does not preclude him from being dehydrated?

"Symptoms of chronic dehydration will begin to appear when the body loses as little as two to three percent of total body water."

That right there already debunks your theory about his weight, so give it a rest, especially when the ISTUE states the condition can be chronic or acute. Furthermore, USADA states that a TUE should be granted from the time the chronic condition is first diagnosed. This already destroyed all of your so called evidence against Floyd, and the way you try to counter it is not by proof like I've hit you in the head over and over with about Pacquaio's supposed shoulder injury, but by saying "He didn't have that." Way to prove your case.



Do you really need to know the difference between Floyd and Manny? Did you watch the fight? This is more idiocy from you. Floyd complained about his shoulder beginning in the 3rd round. He had it massaged in the corner and turned southpaw to deal with the injury. Manny did NONE OF THAT.

And by the way, no one is claiming that the injury was fake to explain Floyd's performance. How ironic that Pacroaches and Pacquaio himself claim it was real to explain HIS PERFORMANCE. People are saying it is fake (look around the internet at the amount of people who say it is clearly bull**** and give valid reasons why it is) because of ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT POINTS TO IT BEING BULL****. VIDEO, PHOTOS, STATEMENTS, LIES, LIES, AND MORE LIES. I'm done with this. Congratulations. You're the Pacroach of the decade, and this proves it. You're also an absolute moron if you can't understand what all of this evidence right in front of your face means.

Not that it matters to you, but I've completely lost respect for you. you are incapable of admitting when you are wrong. How many times did we prove to you that you were wrong about "or" and you still didn't admit it. We should have stopped talking right then and there.

You asked for scenarios and after I help you with them you call it all a lie.

I do not have time to explain this too much right now but ....
FACT: Lets just start with your knowledge on this subject. I have told you that my knowledge and from what I have read, yours, is very limited. This is not the same as dehydration.

I have TRIED to help you out by telling you to be cautious with you calling out your speculation as facts. There is so much that you do not know or understand.

I gave you the simplest advice and you didn't want to listen because you though that Manny was not injured but as I stated several posts ago, you have gaps in your supposed "facts". Its not your fault because you just do not understand this enough.

I didn't really pay attention to this much when it came out but I expected it as well. Lots of internet Floyd doctors think that they have this all figured out but they really are not experts in this field. Right?

My advice to you was that, do not think that all rotator cuff injuries are alike. You just cannot do that. Just think about it. You can have different degrees of an injury plus it can occur on 4 different areas and each injury can be different. Also, not all full thickness tears are alike.

I'm sure that just like my previous posts, you will not take my advice because you think you have enough but you really do not know .... I have not had the time to verify but what I did read brings me to my conclusion.

BUT here you are again in this post. You are flip flopping. With Manny you have nothing conclusive on his actual injury. Manny's renowned doctor said that there was a successful surgery performed on Manny. Yet you are sure that its all a lie. Floyd there is more information yet you need more.

You are inconsistent in your approach.

Go back and revisit what you have on Manny. Is a picture or video really enough? If you answer yes, then why is your answer yes? Then ask yourself, is there a possibility that you are wrong and that what Manny did was possible? If you answer no, then why not?

Also, I notice that you only use the comments from someone that fits your agenda. This may be normal but then that will not formulate a good base on your findings.

Example: Manny's doctor said Amazing and would want to see it for himself. You can read that 2 ways. The most logical way is to read it as he said it but you presumed something else which really does not make any sense.


I gotta go but will continue on another day.




.

[travestyny]

Go back and revisit what you have on Manny. Is a picture or video really enough? If you answer yes, then why is your answer yes? Then ask yourself, is there a possibility that you are wrong and that what Manny did was possible? If you answer no, then why not?

Also, I notice that you only use the comments from someone that fits your agenda. This may be normal but then that will not formulate a good base on your findings.

Example: Manny's doctor said Amazing and would want to see it for himself. You can read that 2 ways. The most logical way is to read it as he said it but you presumed something else which really does not make any sense.


I gotta go but will continue on another day.

Let's begin with your last statement:

How else would you take this quotation?:

"The doctor here was amazed when he saw pictures of his movement and everything…The doctor says he's got to see it himself.”


When he saw pictures of his movement, he was AMAZED.

AMAZED DEFINITION: surprise (someone) greatly; fill with astonishment, astound, surprise, stun, stagger, shock, stupefy, awe, stop someone in their tracks, leave open-mouthed, leave aghast, take someone's breath away, dumbfound; bowl over, flabbergast, blow away.

He's got to SEE IT FOR HIMSELF:
Reads kind of like "I have to see it to believe it" doesn't it, especially after saying he is amazed.

Now as you requested, let's revisit this about Manny.

At every stage of this matter, there are huge question marks and proof of lies.

Before the fight:
He was caught in a lie about when the injury first occurred and whether he felt the effects of the injury immediately before the fight. (FACT)

Pacquiao said: “We wanted a shot for numbing the shoulder but we respect the decision of the Commission it was getting better and better but was still not 100 per cent.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/boxing...eather-5628491

Then he said this:

Pacquiao said, “No, I don’t have pain or injury before the fight. I just want to make sure that whatever happened, I’m still there. I’m not saying I’m not 100 percent condition.”
http://www.newsday.com/sports/boxing...ght-1.11350596


During the fight:(credit to Aboutfkntime)

1. Pac did not mention the injury once (Fact)
2. His corner did not work on the injury (FACT)
3. Pac did not stop using his right hand (FACT)
4. Pac did not stop throwing WITH INTENT (FACT)
5. Pac threw the same amount of punches he threw against Bradley (Fact)
6. The injury wasn't even mentioned during the after-match interview (FACT)

After the fight:

1. He didn’t go to rehab for the first three months after surgery and perhaps longer. (FACT))
2. He said he was miraculously healed by God and swimming in the sea. (FACT) (you laughably tried to twist this into him meaning his scar is healed. Why make up such a preposterous claim?)
3. Freddie Roach seemingly lied by claiming that Manny really did do rehab (Either Pacquaio or Roach is lying, clearly)
4. Roach says Manny was joking (lying) about being healed by God. The deeply religious Manny lying about being healed by God? Doesn't this show Roach was desperately trying to cover for Pacquaio?
5. There is video and photographic evidence of him doing **** that calls into question the severity of the injury if there was one.(FACT). Pictures of this activity amazed even the surgeon that performed the surgery on him. The doctor stated it was a full thickness tear and that perhaps half of another tendon was also torn, and you think he can go swimming in an ocean in one month? Oh, that's right, you compared this to your son playing in a kiddie pool.
6. His surgeon said it was a full thickness tear, yet a LICENSED PHYSICALLY THERAPIST AND INJURY ANALYST who talked to the doctor reported that it was a partial thickness tear. (FACT) HMM. How would she get this information wrong? Perhaps the good old Dr. ElAttrache didn't think he could slip a fast one by her since she works in the field. Furthermore, she says that it would take 6 months for the repair to anchor and for the shoulder to really heal. 6 MONTHS! Makes it kind of strange that he is waving a flag at 1 month, swimming at 1 month, and playing basketball after 3 months. All of which can be verified.
   
   http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12849868

As you would say, imagine this was about Floyd instead of Pacquaio.

I hope for this to be my last question on this topic. As has been reported, we are certainly beating the **** out of this dead horse. But here is my final question:

Knowing all of the information I listed above, does this make you even a little su****ious or not?

[tangalog2200]

Let's begin with your last statement:

How else would you take this quotation?:

"The doctor here was amazed when he saw pictures of his movement and everything…The doctor says he's got to see it himself.”


When he saw pictures of his movement, he was AMAZED.

AMAZED DEFINITION: surprise (someone) greatly; fill with astonishment, astound, surprise, stun, stagger, shock, stupefy, awe, stop someone in their tracks, leave open-mouthed, leave aghast, take someone's breath away, dumbfound; bowl over, flabbergast, blow away.

He's got to SEE IT FOR HIMSELF:
Reads kind of like "I have to see it to believe it" doesn't it, especially after saying he is amazed.

Now as you requested, let's revisit this about Manny.

At every stage of this matter, there are huge question marks and proof of lies.

Before the fight:
He was caught in a lie about when the injury first occurred and whether he felt the effects of the injury immediately before the fight. (FACT)

Pacquiao said: “We wanted a shot for numbing the shoulder but we respect the decision of the Commission it was getting better and better but was still not 100 per cent.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/boxing...eather-5628491

Then he said this:

Pacquiao said, “No, I don’t have pain or injury before the fight. I just want to make sure that whatever happened, I’m still there. I’m not saying I’m not 100 percent condition.”
http://www.newsday.com/sports/boxing...ght-1.11350596


During the fight:(credit to Aboutfkntime)

1. Pac did not mention the injury once (Fact)
2. His corner did not work on the injury (FACT)
3. Pac did not stop using his right hand (FACT)
4. Pac did not stop throwing WITH INTENT (FACT)
5. Pac threw the same amount of punches he threw against Bradley (Fact)
6. The injury wasn't even mentioned during the after-match interview (FACT)

After the fight:

1. He didn’t go to rehab for the first three months after surgery and perhaps longer. (FACT))
2. He said he was miraculously healed by God and swimming in the sea. (FACT) (you laughably tried to twist this into him meaning his scar is healed. Why make up such a preposterous claim?)
3. Freddie Roach seemingly lied by claiming that Manny really did do rehab (Either Pacquaio or Roach is lying, clearly)
4. Roach says Manny was joking (lying) about being healed by God. The deeply religious Manny lying about being healed by God? Doesn't this show Roach was desperately trying to cover for Pacquaio?
5. There is video and photographic evidence of him doing **** that calls into question the severity of the injury if there was one.(FACT). Pictures of this activity amazed even the surgeon that performed the surgery on him. The doctor stated it was a full thickness tear and that perhaps half of another tendon was also torn, and you think he can go swimming in an ocean in one month? Oh, that's right, you compared this to your son playing in a kiddie pool.
6. His surgeon said it was a full thickness tear, yet a LICENSED PHYSICALLY THERAPIST AND INJURY ANALYST who talked to the doctor reported that it was a partial thickness tear. (FACT) HMM. How would she get this information wrong? Perhaps the good old Dr. ElAttrache didn't think he could slip a fast one by her since she works in the field. Furthermore, she says that it would take 6 months for the repair to anchor and for the shoulder to really heal. 6 MONTHS! Makes it kind of strange that he is waving a flag at 1 month, swimming at 1 month, and playing basketball after 3 months. All of which can be verified.
   
   http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12849868

As you would say, imagine this was about Floyd instead of Pacquaio.

I hope for this to be my last question on this topic. As has been reported, we are certainly beating the **** out of this dead horse. But here is my final question:

Knowing all of the information I listed above, does this make you even a little su****ious or not?

i have enjoyed and endured your exchanges with adp on pac's shoulder issue....

both sides have been very articulate and steadfast on their points of view and cheers and props to both of you.....

but i am still lost how pac's shoulder issue relates to the thread topic...

can you or adp please share on the above, please!..i might have missed something previously said/posted on the same...