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Tyson Fury: "MMA is for people who can't box!"

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  • #81
    Originally posted by Box-Office View Post
    Except how many MMA rejects come in to boxing and actually do well?


    MMA is where ppl who've done well in a discipline go to earn real $ where as they wouldn't have done so if they stayed in their pure Judo or Jiu Jitsu cuz in MMA you can pick up a bit of this and bit of that and become good as there are so many ways to lose that its hard to become an untouchable master and a relative novice can knock your lights out.


    In boxing you need yrs of training to achieve mastery even though you're using two hands. I think that's true for all other disciplines cuz you're focusing on one specific area all your life.


    I don't have a horse in the race cuz I enjoy both, one more than others.

    I'm with you in that I'm a fan of both. What I will say though is this. Fury is right to a degree, but it is meaningless. An MMA fighter or boxer for that matter is'nt going to perform well on the world level when you talk, kickboxing, judo, Sambo, Ju-Jitsu, or wrestling, as a general rule unless that is what their background is in. Saying a guy can't box on the world level that spent his entire life training Ju-jitsu, is'nt exactly a revelation. It would be like me saying Tom Brady is a great quarterback but he would suck at Cricket.

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    • #82
      Originally posted by j0zef View Post

      I also disagree that it's the same mentally because a boxer is more limited in their choice of weapons. In very simplistic terms, a boxer thinks "do I go for a jab, cross, hook or uppercut? To the body or to the head?" (or clinch for some people ).
      A mixed martial artist thinks "do I go for a jab, cross, hook, uppercut, front kick, side kick, takedown, elbow, backfist, shin kick, flying triple somersault spinning kick?" And the same applies on defense - which of these will my opponent use? Which counter am I open to?

      I still disagree with this take. I get the point that you are trying to make, but in your example you make boxing seem more simple, when it is much more complex than that at a high level.

      A jab is never just a jab, cross, hook, uppercut.

      You also aren't thinking in those terms when you are boxing, you are thinking 3-5 steps ahead at least, and you have to apply an agile methodology to adapt to what doesn't work, what does work, or what might work but not how you envisioned it or expected it.

      Do I flick the jab from below, or is my guard up? How far am I from my opponent? Is it a range finding jab, or is it a stiff jab to stop him in his tracks?

      Do I double my jab up? If I do, do I change speeds?
      Do I triple my jab?
      Do I throw 4 jabs at different body points?
      Do I throw in movement? Am I throwing in rhythmic movement like the Dempsey roll?
      Am I throwing while pivoting or working my way clockwise or counter clockwise?
      Am I fighting a southpaw in the conventional way, or do I force him to adjust?
      Am I stepping in with my jab, or am I throwing it from a set base?
      What level am I throwing from? Am I throwing from a low level up? Am I throwing from a low level to the body?
      Am I punching down on a shorter opponent? Am I really taller or is he making himself a smaller target by fighting at a lower level?
      Can I make myself fight at a lower level, or do I want to force the fight outside?
      Am I feinting the jab to setup other shots?
      Am I feinting before the jab? What about after?
      Do I want to pivot right and come up with a hook from a low level because he can't figure out how to counter it, or do I keep giving him different angles and looks?
      Do I keep my head bobbing or do I keep a slight bounce because I am reliant on my reflexes?
      Do I move my head side to side or am I doing L formations and figure eights?
      Do I want to set traps? What kind of traps do I want to set? Do I want to set traps around my body and counter up top or pivot to the liver?
      Do I set traps upstairs and try to catch my opponent off balance and let my hands go inside and finish with an uppercut followed by a check hook? Do I stop there and reset or do I pivot and keep throwing?
      Do I catch and shoot, or do I straight counter?
      Do I catch and feint, then shoot?
      Do I lead with a check hook?
      Do I lead with a right uppercut?
      Do I commit outside and lunge at an angle and throw a uppercut-straight-uppercut-straight then pivot out whether it's blocked or not?
      Do I feel comfortable sitting in the pocket, head in his chest, instigating a phonebooth fight and keeping his elbows low with work to the body?
      Would I rather sit in the pocket as a trap instead, then roll to the side and counter then roll back so he never sets nor has the base to deliver power shots?
      Do I fight off the backfoot if I am faster, causing him to constantly reset, force the ineffective pressure, then outwork him behind jabs and straights and use my legs to reset myself and make him cross the ring?

      Maybe I want to dance within range, bounce on my toes, and land jabs and straights with my hands low, threatening to switch stances or lunge in but only showing looks to force a reset or confuse my rival.

      Those are just a few things that pass through my head in a bout 1/3 of a round, and that's the "happy path" where everything works and you aren't getting blasted.

      My plan A is to box from the outside and circling to the right as an orthodox, only throwing my jab in movement as a range finder. If he closes the distance rapidly I stop him with a check hook and circle out to the left. If he cuts off the ring and lands within range, I do a full cross commit at full force that leaves me off balance but also leaves me a level below and in a position to either pivot right, or let off short shots shoe shine style inside.

      Plan B is to come forward and apply pressure, keep my guard higher than I need to and change from my philly shell variation to a peek-a-boo style and change my stance to face my opponent and throw with more authority, change levels rapidly and throw from both levels, but remain economical with my movement, if the short slips don't work then eat the shots and make sure I land the last of the exchange, but sit inside and throw rapid successions of 3-4 punch combinations to the body and head, and move with my opponent. If he steps back I step forward with him like we are dancing, if he holds his ground I plant my feet and throw with authority, but no pivots. I am only pivoting if he pivots, and I pivot with him. If he clinches, I deliver a shoe shine as he opens up then take a step back. If he doesn't reach to clinch I don't step back, and if he does, I step back then throw a classic 1-2-3 combo and come back inside but at a low level, so if he reaches again, I can come up with an uppercut. then step back, rinse repeat.

      My plan C is to stay at a low level and throw constant crosses up and downstairs as I begin to sneak right and left hooks behind them, every 2nd or 3rd straight I will feint it and throw two uppercuts as I move forward, then come up a level as I throw a left hook then pivot if he holds his ground, or drop back down and pivot left if he rolls or counters, come up with a left uppercut and pivot to the left again, then back off and work my way right.

      If plan A and B are ineffective or he counters my approaches and I am on plan C, then I better have plan D ready before the next round, or my opponent could have the mental advantage.

      That's really just the surface.

      I haven't even brought up things like:
      switching stances and how it can be useful in a fight.
      Changing defensive and offensive looks as the fight goes along.
      Options you have when you are hurt, and the risks involved.
      Changing speeds effectively, and when/why you should do it.
      Reward/Risk of committing, choosing to go off balance, etc.
      Breathing techniques.
      How to take punches you don't block.
      How to block punches: catching, rolling, deflecting, absorbing, etc.
      Methods of countering: straight counters, traps, parry counters.
      Methods of effective aggression vs volume punching.
      Controlling your opponent with setup punches and check hooks, as opposed to controlling your opponent with movement, and both at the same time.
      When to stick to fundamentals of punching, defense, and stance, and knowing when to deviate effectively.
      Advanced feints and tactics, like holding out an arm extended to block their vision and prevent a lunge, letting your lead hand hover in their face so you can feint, deliver a short punch, or disguise an attack, baiting with your chin out or intentionally looping a punch or appearing to go off balance (advanced traps).



      The surface homie. We are tickling it. I've been lacing em up since '06 and I am still a student in this game.
      Last edited by LoadedWraps; 01-11-2016, 04:23 PM.

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      • #83


        This interview is from seven years ago and a lot of it remains true .

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        • #84
          Originally posted by Eff Pandas View Post
          Well like I said I don't really see either side doing anything on the title scale yet, but I do suspect the first person from either side that crosses over & does that to be an MMA fighter. And its for simple reasons like because there is probably a tiny percentage of boxers who could kick someone in the head, successfully grapple/wrestle &/or sprawl if asked to right now today thus the advancement to be made just in those fields that would be needed to compete in MMA would be to long of a road for them to achieve.



          Its not a logically fallacy unless you are discounting kickboxing like it doesn't exist as a real combat sport or its not more in the realm of being a mixed martial artist if you want, but I don't believe that to be true. The fact remains there are a TON of kickboxers who've sucessfully competed in kickboxing & transitioned into boxing & MMA. I believe it qualifies as its own category in this discussion.

          And it doesn't matter if she spent more time boxing than MMA. The fact remains she spent her first ~3-4 years in combat sports kickboxing before she pursued boxing. She's trained at what was one of the premier MMA gyms in the world for I believe her whole combat sports career & her "boxing trainer" was one of the top kickboxing/MMA trainers in the world. To say she's just a boxer is severely limiting her capabilities. And I tend to believe if there had been womans MMA on the scale there is now back when she was starting out her boxing career might have never came to be. The reality is there is no money in kickboxing & there was no womans MMA virtually at all til the last 6 or so years so the only place a woman who likes to hit other woman in the head to go was boxing.

          And than we get into the fact there are probably like 50 active woman in pro boxing & MMA at any given time in any given weight division so the pool of talent is so low I think a lot of women could transition to the other sport just on their ability to physically compete at a high level. Joanna Jedrzejczyk, the UFC strawweight champion, would FOR SURE win a boxing title if she wanted to. She's a monster striker coming from a kickboing/muay thai background with like 140 fights total (iirc, 70ish muay thai + 70ish amateur + pro kickboxing).

          Plus I mean Ronda came from f#cking Judo ffs, which isn't a combat sport that has transitioned easily into MMA yet she became so big in combat sports she was on the cover of boxing magazines lol. The barrier of entry is lower in womans combat sports & the path to success is less obstacle filled so its just a matter of desire & money & I suspect being among the top 50 or so MMA females pays better than being among the top 50 or so boxing females these days so there is less desire to go into boxing (as Holm's transition to a pro MMA career would suggest).
          You make some apt points that I agree with (especially about the talent pool in women's combat sports). My main point is that it is easier to find success in MMA than it would be in boxing. I am a big fan of both sports but someone with a boxing base can transition to MMA but someone with say....a wrestling base couldn't become a champion within the first 5 years of taking up boxing. I remember watching a video on Gray Maynard (hope you know who that is) who was a wrestler and ended up on TUF and was a pretty successful fighter in MMA. He improved his striking and boxing so much he got ****y. He says in a video (which I've been freaking looking for but cant find) that his coach decided to have him spar with a pure boxer he got totally schooled and humbled. I say that to say this, to become a successful boxer takes more than years of dedication, it takes decades. You can take whatever base you have, whether that be boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, or judo and become a successful talent in MMA rather quickly. I could never in a million years see that happening in boxing.

          Last point. I never said Holly Holm is just a boxer. I said HER BASE IS BOXING. It's what she mastered, what she is most comfortable with, and where her success in combat sports arose from, her striking ability. You say her base is kickboxing, to me that's Granny Smith to Green apples. She used foot work, movement, timing and precision counting (all top level boxing techniques) to embarrass Rowdy.
          Last edited by SkillspayBills; 01-11-2016, 09:40 PM.

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          • #85
            I disagree with that notion.

            I mean it's no secret that most MMA fighters can't box too well. But that's fair enough, they have to keep a very different stance unless they want to be on their back.

            Another thing is most MMA fighters probably don't want to box. A lot of these guys are wrestlers and grapplers. MMA is perfect for them.

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            • #86
              Marathon running is for people who can't sprint.

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              • #87
                MMA is as old as boxing is. MMA was first introduced into the Greek Olympic Games back in 648 BC... At that time MMA was called Pankration...

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                • #88
                  Just because there are more rules in boxing it doesn't mean it's easier to master it. People who have this opinion tend to view boxing as basically MMA without grappling and kicking, which is absurd.

                  There are a lot of elements in boxing that you'll never find in MMA style of boxing/striking.

                  The grappling aspect and kicks bring a lot of new elements to the game but they also take a lot out of MMA-style boxing. Take for example the Mike Tyson peek-a-boo style and bobbing and weaving, if you bring kicks and takedowns to the game it doesn't work. So an MMA fighter has less to worry about here while a boxer has to master that technique/style or how to counter it.

                  Mayweather's philly shell and shoulder roll also doesn't work in MMA. Him and the guys who fight him have to prepare for an aspect that doesn't exist in MMA, ergo they have to learn/master something that MMA fighters don't have to train a day in their life.

                  It's not just the case with boxing, MMA-style BJJ is different than BJJ with gi, that's why you have some wrestlers from Oklahoma who can hold their own on the ground against top level Brazilian black belts with BJJ lineage going back to Gracie.

                  MMA wrestling is also different than olympic freestyle or greco-roman wrestling, that's why you had Jon Jones outwrestling olympic silver medalist in an MMA cage.

                  You had sambo grappler Fedor outstriking world class kickboxer Cro Cop because of the threat of takedowns which made Cro Cop hesistant, neutralizing his kicks.

                  Essentialy you have to learn all those elements of MMA (boxing, footwork, elbows, kicks, takedowns, sprawls, submissions etc.) but you learn them in a specific and less complex way to complement each other as a whole.

                  Take a look at chess where you have a small playing field and a small number of figures yet there is so much complexity behind it and so many ways to win/lose. Boxing is like that.

                  I'm not saying MMA isn't difficult to master, it's just that it's ****** to compare it to boxing. Fedor for example is a great example of a great MMA strategist who beat other fighters by pure mastery of the game. He outstriked world class kickboxers, ragdolled olympic judokas and hanged in the guard of BJJ black belts like it was nothing. His boxing was very rudimentary because he didn't need to better it.
                  Last edited by RedZmaja; 01-12-2016, 11:16 AM.

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by MDPopescu View Post
                    MMA is as old as boxing is. MMA was first introduced into the Greek Olympic Games back in 648 BC... At that time MMA was called Pankration...
                    Yup.

                    I would still take boxing with a gun to my head though.

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                    • #90
                      I wouldn't disagree. Some of their boxing skills are awful

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