The oldschool of boxing is overrated

[A-Wolf]

It's ridiculous of course. Tape don't lie. I'll use one example. There's no way anybody can convince me some of these black and white fighters could whoop Pernell or deserve to be ranked ahead of him on ATG lists. He's literally three times faster and seven times better executed. **** is laughable.

[-Antonio-]

I agree.

When it comes to ranking all time greats, the disadvantage of modern fighters is that their fights aren't filmed in low resolution black and white.

There is no question that boxers today are FAR superior to those 60-100 years ago. And it's not even close.

The most humorous remark I hear on these boards is that Willie Pep would actually give Floyd Mayweather a competitive fight, let alone beat him

Or that any Heavyweight from that era would even last 4 rounds with a Klitschko

I don't know is it crazy to think Pep would at least be competitive? You can argue he is the best Featherweight ever.

[The_Sandman]

Please read every post of mine in this thread. Pep should not considered as a head to head rival of Floyd due to differing weight divisions. Ray Robinson is a much better choice from the same era.

Being on a site for 8 years is irrelevant. I've spoken to people who have followed the sport for 60+ years and speak absolute garbage. Whereas there are teenagers/guys in their early 20s in the history section who make perfect sense due to their research of the sport and their observation of historic fight films.

I appreciate Mayweather as much as anyone. He is undoubtedly one of the very best I have ever seen. He will no doubt go down with the other pound for pound greats in history.....including Robinson, Charles, Leonard, Hearns, Pep, Whitaker or Jones jnr.

So I'm not going to attempt a head to head technical comparison with Pep. All I can say is that Pep's game didn't lack anything, the films still look great and I'd argue that he'd acquit himself well against any of history's featherweights. He might, just might have been a superior combination puncher than Floyd.....

As for advances in training and equipment. I can't say the fighters of today look so much better on film than their historical counterparts.....at least from the 40s/50s onwards where fight film improved in visual quality. The advancements in technical skills of boxers did seem to improve quite dramatically between 1900 and the late 1930s.

I can't say that speed or punch output/workrate has increased as the recent decades have past......for all the improvements in training/equipment you cite.

You mean, you don't see many visible changes between now and then. There are a lot of little subtle things that fighters in today's era do that they didn't before. So subtle that you can't even see it. For instance, Floyd's jab to the body is different from the way Ali or SRR threw theirs. They're jab to the body looks more like a flick as if it's just used as a decoy. Floyd puts his whole body weight into his and he seems to be in a more fencing position when he throws it. They even focus on what they eat and shouldn't eat. For fighter's today, a fighter and a trainer is not enough. Fighters today have a whole team. Some even go as far as hiring strength and conditioning coaches. In fact, some fighters actually have nutritionists too. You have to understand, the standards are higher in today's era too. If George Foreman was the oldest champion before, then Hopkins felt he had to be more disciplined to surpass that. As the standards change, the fighter's mentality will change as well. If they feel like they have to run more miles, spar more rounds, give less corner breaks, bring in fresh sparring partners every round, then they will do whatever it takes to achieve those standards. I'm sure fighters in the future will come up with more grueling training methods to break today's records.

[Mr.Fantastic]

There is greats from all eras of boxing. What is dumb is when they flip flop their standards on a boxer's greatness. Like saying this guy that got beat was because he was not in prime, yet goes in another thread(sometimes even the same thread) and gives credit to a boxer he likes for beating someone with the out of prime situation.

[Guest]

You mean, you don't see many visible changes between now and then. There are a lot of little subtle things that fighters in today's era do that they didn't before. So subtle that you can't even see it. For instance, Floyd's jab to the body is different from the way Ali or SRR threw theirs. They're jab to the body looks more like a flick as if it's just used as a decoy. Floyd puts his whole body weight into his and he seems to be in a more fencing position when he throws it. They even focus on what they eat and shouldn't eat. For fighter's today, a fighter and a trainer is not enough. Fighters today have a whole team. Some even go as far as hiring strength and conditioning coaches. In fact, some fighters actually have nutritionists too. You have to understand, the standards are higher in today's era too. If George Foreman was the oldest champion before, then Hopkins felt he had to be more disciplined to surpass that. As the standards change, the fighter's mentality will change as well. If they feel like they have to run more miles, spar more rounds, give less corner breaks, bring in fresh sparring partners every round, then they will do whatever it takes to achieve those standards. I'm sure fighters in the future will come up with more grueling training methods to break today's records.

I just don't think most fighters are in as good of shape as some of the old timers going 15 rounds and having wars despite all the advanced training techniques.
Sure a few do, but it just doesn't seem as common.

Less people box too overall so a lot of times the training suffers and fighters learn too late because boxing is a fringe sport the money for training facilities doesn't seem to be there.

Floyd is pretty special and would be in any day and age so to use him is kind of like giving the teacher the shiny part of the apple while the worms are hidden on the other side.

You would think overall all these advances would make more good fights.
Doesn't seem to happen.

I guess I am still thinking about that snoozer of a PPV last weekend.

[Mr.Fantastic]

It's ridiculous of course. Tape don't lie. I'll use one example. There's no way anybody can convince me some of these black and white fighters could whoop Pernell or deserve to be ranked ahead of him on ATG lists. He's literally three times faster and seven times better executed. **** is laughable.

While I agree what you're saying with most of it. I too think so with Pernell, DLH and other boxers that I like a lot. But still, you can't discredit their accomplishments. Fantasy fights should not be a measure of greatness.

[Richard Wadd]

It is clearly better now due to evolution and improvements in training and technical skills.

I mean let's look at p4p lists. So much better nowadays, not filled with scrubs in their primes like Tyson, Chavez, Whitaker, Nunn, Taylor, RJJ, DLH, Tito, Hopkins, Mosley, Too Sharp, Morales

1989

1. Mike Tyson
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Michael Nunn
5. Antonio Esparragoza
6. Meldrick Taylor
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Raul Perez
9. Virgil Hill
10. Marlon Starling

1999

1. Roy Jones
2. Floyd Mayweather
3. Felix Trinidad
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Shane Mosley
6. Mark Johnson
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Erik Morales
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Stevie Johnson

2014:

1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Andre Ward
3. Timothy Bradley
4. Wladimir Klitschko
5. Sergio Martinez
6. Juan Manuel Marquez
7. Manny Pacquiao
8. Guillermo rigondeuax
9. Canelo Alvarez
10. Carl Froch


http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th...Annual_Ratings

[dan_cov]

I disagree. I did however used too think this way but I feel it was mainly because of slow pace and excessive clinching for most part but if you take some time and watch say a guy like a Gene Tunney - Who at a first glance might appear quite ordinary actually you'll start too pick up on the subtle skills.
Its more cagey, clever boxing.

The more I see of a lot of todays fighters I am now often saying ''Thank **** for you, you're in this whack era, because you'd be a nobody in any previous''

So many of todays fighters have no footwork! Sub-par conditioning. They will have zero head movement and its a case of rinse, wash, repeat. Its the same **** over and over again against someone so poor they can not make a single adjustment.

I apologise but if I am totally honest I feel most of todays 'boxers' are absolute trash and I am not sure what they are even paying a trainer for because they are clearly learning, nothing.

The only country I see producing boxers on a regular basis with genuine world class skillsets is Cuba. Too many are getting stuck in the amateurs & people are crazy if they think just because a fighter has 200+ fights they can't be one dimensional. That is actually how a lot become one dimensional, because they're doing the exact same thing over & over, week in, week out. They're not working on weaknesses or anything, other than a style to suit.
Tell me the last time you seen a British fighter who had a good amateur pedigree that wasn't one dimensional. Khan, Price, the lot of them. One trick ponies.

Most of todays fighters wouldn't cut it in previous eras.

[Richard Wadd]

The Heavyweight division has seen the biggest improvement because of improvements in medicine, training, and teaching.

No way guys like Foreman, Frazier, Ali, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, Moorer, Ruddock, and Spoon could compete with the modern breed of heavyweight who combine raw athleticism, excellent training habits, with top technical skills.

1974:

Champ: Muhammad Ali
1. George Foreman
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ron Lyle
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Joe Bugner
6. Ken Norton
7. Jerry Quarry
8. Chuck Wepner
9. Henry Clark
10. Larry Middleton

1991:

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Donovan Ruddock
5. Ray Mercer
6. George Foreman
7. Tim Witherspoon
8. Tony Tucker
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Michael Moorer

2014:

Champ: Waldo Klitschko

1. Kubrat Pulev
2. Alexander Povetkin
3. Tomasz Adamek
4. Betmane Steverne
5. Tyson Fury
6. Robert Helenius
7. Chris Arreola
8. Oleander Solis
9. Ruslan Chagaev
10. Deontae Wilder

[Guest]

The Heavyweight division has seen the biggest improvement because of improvements in medicine, training, and teaching.

No way guys like Foreman, Frazier, Ali, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, Moorer, Ruddock, and Spoon could compete with the modern breed of heavyweight who combine raw athleticism, excellent training habits, with top technical skills.

1974:

Champ: Muhammad Ali
1. George Foreman
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ron Lyle
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Joe Bugner
6. Ken Norton
7. Jerry Quarry
8. Chuck Wepner
9. Henry Clark
10. Larry Middleton

1991:

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Donovan Ruddock
5. Ray Mercer
6. George Foreman
7. Tim Witherspoon
8. Tony Tucker
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Michael Moorer

2014:

Champ: Waldo Klitschko

1. Kubrat Pulev
2. Alexander Povetkin
3. Tomasz Adamek
4. Betmane Steverne
5. Tyson Fury
6. Robert Helenius
7. Chris Arreola
8. Oleander Solis
9. Ruslan Chagaev
10. Deontae Wilder

Are you serious?