The oldschool of boxing is overrated

[brickcityboxing]

It's not blasphemy its' foolishness.

SRR would walk clean thru Mayweather.

Beat Mayweather ? Maybe. Nobody in the history of the sport 130-47 is walking clean through Mayweather... Jr. Of course.

[Holywarrior]

Beat Mayweather ? Maybe. Nobody in the history of the sport 130-47 is walking clean through Mayweather... Jr. Of course.

I think Hearns would. But yeah other than that Mayweather holds his own. He's just that good.

[B-Bomber]

No, he really would not.

No?

An easy example:

Ali and Wlad are both 'outside fighters' , both have a long reach. Ali had better footwork, better hand speed, a much better chin, better conditioning (and would clinch when necessary, although Wlad is the clinch Master).

When Wlad was forced on the inside by a golf player with good power looked completely lost. I doubt he has improved that much in inside fighting, all he does on the inside is clinch.

Any version of Frazier up to 1973 knocks the hell out of Wladimir imo.


As for the general topic , I see a regress.

Less people box, and those who do are technically inferior in general. Mayweather, Hopkins and Rigo are exceptions, and get criticized for their technique.

Conditioning?. Canelo is panting after 6 rounds, most HW's are at least 20 pounds overweight , there goes the argument for being bigger men.

It is not about being sentimental, I wish I could see more technically sound fighters , not necessarily great talents, but solid guys who know what they are doing and how, guys like Bradley (when he's not brawling to prove a point).

[Sugarj]

You mean, you don't see many visible changes between now and then. There are a lot of little subtle things that fighters in today's era do that they didn't before. So subtle that you can't even see it. For instance, Floyd's jab to the body is different from the way Ali or SRR threw theirs. They're jab to the body looks more like a flick as if it's just used as a decoy. Floyd puts his whole body weight into his and he seems to be in a more fencing position when he throws it. They even focus on what they eat and shouldn't eat. For fighter's today, a fighter and a trainer is not enough. Fighters today have a whole team. Some even go as far as hiring strength and conditioning coaches. In fact, some fighters actually have nutritionists too. You have to understand, the standards are higher in today's era too. If George Foreman was the oldest champion before, then Hopkins felt he had to be more disciplined to surpass that. As the standards change, the fighter's mentality will change as well. If they feel like they have to run more miles, spar more rounds, give less corner breaks, bring in fresh sparring partners every round, then they will do whatever it takes to achieve those standards. I'm sure fighters in the future will come up with more grueling training methods to break today's records.

The jab to the body is a style issue. Mayweather cannot or does not triple hook to the head and body like Robinson did. Robinson's left hook combinations look just as revolutionary today as they did back in the 40s & 50s. Only Roy Jones has done it quite as well since then......maybe Meldrick Taylor too!

As for strength/conditioning coaches and advances in sports nutrition. Yes its there......yes it helps create better athletes in an Olympic sense. But are world class boxers today showing more speed/power and workrate than the best of the 50s? Not to my eyes.......perhaps they worked harder, perhaps the standard was greater because fighters fought every few weeks, perhaps they had to be more disciplined due to same day weigh ins?

[Box-Office]

as you use basketball to drive your point home...then consider this....

who among the modern basketball greats will you compare over bill russel?

Tim Duncan plain and simple. A true pro and a real champ. He doesnt have a million rings but he competed for his in a now 29 to 30 team league. Back in Russel's days there were a lot less teams and ABA hadn't merged which had major talent.

Like the 1960-61 season in which Russel won a title in had only 8 teams. Also like ive stated back in the days one guy could do one thing great and he was the ace. Today everyone can do multiple things and do them well if not great.

[Ham Porter]

Exactly, green rep to you. Wladimir improved his defense, but Frazier could never improve his jaw or size.

Wlad's improved defence is almost entirely based around excessive clinching. He'll grasp on to any opponent that is in punching range and hold onto him like a long lost brother before the ref eventually steps in to break it up.


Frazier's lack of size was beneficial to him against bigger heavyweights because of his crouch and persistent head movement which made him very difficult to hit clean with any real consistency, and it forced his bigger opponents into expending a lot of energy into just trying to keep him at bay.

[Xpert]

Wlad's improved defence is almost entirely based around excessive clinching. He'll grasp on to any opponent that is in punching range and hold onto him like a long lost brother before the ref eventually steps in to break it up.


Frazier's lack of size was beneficial to him against bigger heavyweights because of his crouch and persistent head movement which made him very difficult to hit clean with any real consistency, and it forced his bigger opponents into expending a lot of energy into just trying to keep him at bay.

That's some bull**** and you know it. The ONLY fights worth mentioning on Frazier's resume are:

Ali 1
Ali 2
Ali 3
Foreman 1
Foreman 2

Everyone else on Frazier's resume ******. However, he did have 5 fights against 2 good tall boxers. He managed to win one of those 5 fights. So in action, his style has proven to work 20% of the time when he's facing a GOOD tall heavyweight.

[The_Sandman]

floyd puts more in his jabs as he jabs less....

but you are right ali jabs flickers to set up his combos and heavy right...

surely ali & floyd have different styles and they use the jabs differently for their purpose...

to say floyd's jabs are better than ali's is a bit overreaching

I'd have to disagree with you. Because I do believe Floyd's jab to the body is better. Floyd uses his jab to the body to set up his punches upstairs as well. When he throws his jab to the body it actually looks like a shoot to the body. In another words, he actually pushes off his back feet to get that spear like motion to the body. He's not bending from his waist and just flicking it out just to get that headshot in. He throws that jab to the body with commitment, and comes upstairs with commitment as well (check the 0:47 mark in the video below). Not saying Ali is doing it wrong or anything (who am I to say). It's just natural for techniques to evolve.

[cupocity303]

No?

An easy example:

Ali and Wlad are both 'outside fighters' , both have a long reach. Ali had better footwork, better hand speed, a much better chin, better conditioning (and would clinch when necessary, although Wlad is the clinch Master).

Ali by all accounts WASTED unnecessary energy in a 15 round fight of all, by dancing around. Sometimes he would dance around so much that he hardly put together any punches (see prime 1960's Ali during his Title defense years. I've seen fights where he hardly did anything but jab and dance for 15 rounds straight). And much like Wlad he didn't throw body shots because they weren't necessary.

When Wlad was forced on the inside by a golf player with good power looked completely lost. I doubt he has improved that much in inside fighting, all he does on the inside is clinch.

That KO was a fluke and Wlad has improved and kept improving as he picked up more experience. He knows his limitations and he knows his strength's and he has maximized those strengths. His strengths are to be a conservative fighter. It's not necessary for Wlad to fight on the inside as he is a lanky fighter.

Fighting on the inside is lowering yourself down to your opponents level who most of the time has no choice but to fight on the inside. Prime example: Mike Tyson who couldn't box from the outside even if he wanted to with his size. And again, besides Ali's past-prime days rope-a-doping fighters with sloppy counter punching, he too was not an inside fighter and hardly threw body punches. The only reason he got a lot "tougher" is out of necessity once his legs abandoned him.

Any version of Frazier up to 1973 knocks the hell out of Wladimir imo.

I disagree. I think Wlad beats him 9 times out of 10. We'll give Smokin' Joe enough respect to grant him one possible win. But most likely, Wlad beats him even the 10th time as he is too short and Wlad would never allow him to play his strengths. At 5'11 his famous left hook would never reach Wlad's chin.

Wlad would jab and straight right on him all night, along with leaning 250 pounds on him the few times he did manage to get on the inside.

As for the general topic , I see a regress.

Less people box, and those who do are technically inferior in general. Mayweather, Hopkins and Rigo are exceptions, and get criticized for their technique.

This was always the case. For every Sugar Ray and Joe Louis, you had a whole bunch of Rocky marciano's, Jack Dempsey's, George Foreman's and other blood and guts brutes who left every fight a bleeding mess.

[cupocity303]

Wlad's improved defence is almost entirely based around excessive clinching. He'll grasp on to any opponent that is in punching range and hold onto him like a long lost brother before the ref eventually steps in to break it up.


.

This is not true, but is merely a caricature painted by snort attention spanned morons who pile on the bandwagon.

Wlad's primary defense is his stance and moderate footwork. He maximized his height advantage by not spreading out his legs too much and thus his head stays above danger. Every time a fighter attempts a haye-maker (no pun intended) they catch his arm or his shoulder. Almost every time. He simply anticipates their punch and takes a slight step back and they catch the shoulder.

When they don't catch the shoulder, they're preoccupied by having a jab in their face all night long. Either it's a pawing jab or it's a stiff jab which they don't see coming because they're being lulled to sleep with the aforementioned pawing jab. You add in the straight right and a lot of fighters get worn down and out. And yes, if they're being too aggressive, they smother themselves along with Wlad's help by clinching them and wearing them out some more.