Documents reveal Ali vs Liston was fixed

[The Big Dunn]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Ali was not involved but then Liston might have very well been

Listons mob connections have always made many question the legitimacy of the pnch. I dont think it was fixed though.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Your headline is misleading. The documents merely indicate that the FBI suspected the fight was fixed. That's it.

I agree. The article is just more tantalizing circumstantial evidence that the fights were fixed. Like I said before, I don't think we'll ever know the truth. But the intrigue keeps the legend alive. In that sense, it's kinda cool.

[LacedUp]

In a documentary interview, George Chuvalo echoes what many fans think about the "phantom punch," that Liston was "one tough hombre" and that there's "no way" he would've gone down from such a blow.

Sonny might've been playing-it-up with that display. First he rolls around the canvass unconvincingly, then he looks over at his corner sheepishly as he stands by Walcott , then he cowers as Ali moves in again. I could be completely wrong, of course, but, to me, Liston's body language was utterly unconvincing.

Yeah I remember that as well. For a guy that was virtually unbeatable and hadn't been hurt in 30 odd fights or whatever it was, I find it extremely hard to believe that he'd go down for a 10 count from that punch.

I recall watching another interview, with one of his biographers who noted that Liston had said: "Of course I took a dive. That punch didn't hurt me. I just wanted nothing to do with him or that mob (the muslims) of his".

Or something of that nature. I do believe, however, that he was beaten fairly in the first fight.

[The Problem Child]

I love reading things like this. Most probably presented without hard factual information BUT it gives you an insight into the dark side of boxing. It sort of opens your mind to different situations and scenarios that go on.

[Fetta]

Shocking revelation that boxing may be corrupt

[CubanGuyNYC]

Listons mob connections have always made many question the legitimacy of the pnch. I dont think it was fixed though.

That's the thing, boxing is a sport with a strong tradition of corruption. Those fights took place in an era were the sport was even more rife with corruption, and at a time where the mob was far stronger in the United States.

Liston was 35-1 when he faced Ali for the first time. His only loss came in an eight round split decision, a fight where Sonny suffered a broken jaw in the fourth. Given Liston's history, the "look" of the fight, and his known mob ties, it's tough not to seriously question the legitimacy of both fights.

[The Big Dunn]

That's the thing, boxing is a sport with a strong tradition of corruption. Those fights took place in an era were the sport was even more rife with corruption, and at a time where the mob was far stronger in the United States.

Liston was 35-1 when he faced Ali for the first time. His only loss came in an eight round split decision, a fight where Sonny suffered a broken jaw in the fourth. Given Liston's history, the "look" of the fight, and his known mob ties, it's tough not to seriously question the legitimacy of both fights.

Good post. GIven Clay's persona/bravado/slight frame and Liston's career to that point its not a stretch to believe there was HEAVY money on Liston and that Clay winning made th "house" HUGE money.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Yeah I remember that as well. For a guy that was virtually unbeatable and hadn't been hurt in 30 odd fights or whatever it was, I find it extremely hard to believe that he'd go down for a 10 count from that punch.

I recall watching another interview, with one of his biographers who noted that Liston had said: "Of course I took a dive. That punch didn't hurt me. I just wanted nothing to do with him or that mob (the muslims) of his".

Or something of that nature. I do believe, however, that he was beaten fairly in the first fight.

Yeah, I think Ali probably would've won both fights legitimately. He's considered "The Greatest" for a reason, and not just because of Liston. Ali was magnificent in that first fight, poetry in motion. He was like a champion thoroughbred. But, in my mind, I don't think the issue was whether Ali would've won or not, but whether Liston was in on a fix. I think there's a very good chance he was...on both occasions.

And, yes, it's been said that Liston felt threatened by the Nation of Islam. In the end, Sonny's life is shrouded in mystery. He died young, and under suspicious circumstances. He led a shady life...and death.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Good post. GIven Clay's persona/bravado/slight frame and Liston's career to that point its not a stretch to believe there was HEAVY money on Liston and that Clay winning made th "house" HUGE money.

Funny, whenever I hear someone call Ali "Clay," I'm reminded of a moment from my childhood. I was probably around 5 or 6 years old. I asked my uncle who the greatest boxer of all time was. His reply, in his Cuban accent, was: "Casheeclay." lol My next question, with eyes wide open: "Was he better than Muhammad Ali?" lmao

[sbbigmike]

To those that doubt a fix in any of the Liston matches, watch the Liston Phantom punch Biography and you'll different understanding of this fight and era. Before Ali came into the fold the mob tried to make Liston lay down for Patterson who was there smart educated negro they could stand behind. Liston only lived because his mob manager bet all the money on Liston who was big underdog there and saved face. After beating Patterson and winning the belt not one reporter came to the locker room and interviewed Liston, that scene alone showed that it showed that boxing was more than just about boxing and winning and losing. Liston wasnt the it guy and never would be, I'm sure Liston then understood this.........Then comes along another smart well spoken negro Cassius Clay and Liston lays down for him twice..........

The whole era has one big asterisk *** to me as far as I'm concerned even down to Foreman retiring until after Ali was completely faded, was Foreman another Liston character who was never liked, and the "connected" people wouldnt stand behind, eerie **** was going on then...........