Ward in beating E-Rod as a LHW has now twice beaten the lineal LHW champ.

[Larry the boss]

What the hell source, link, handbook etc. are guys getting this from?

Michael Spinks was the universally recognized lineal Heavyweight champ at the time of the Tyson fight, even though he was OFFICIALLY retired for 1 & a half years.

Joe Louis was still the universally recognized undisputed champ during his 3 year hiatus from the division.

I believe Ali was still recognized as the lineal champ at the time of the Holmes fight.

spinks was not retired before the Tyson fight and thats why he still had the Ring title..and hell no Ali was not the lineal champ when he fought Holmes...Holmes was the lineal champion

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm

[Russian Crushin]

spinks was not retired before the Tyson fight and thats why he still had the Ring title..and hell no Ali was not the lineal champ when he fought Holmes...Holmes was the lineal champion

No he wasnt. Ali was the lineal champ but then retired it. Holmes then became the lineal champ when he beat Ali to begin a new lineage. He was never a lineal champ before he faced Ali

[Larry the boss]

No he wasnt. Ali was the lineal champ but then retired it. Holmes then became the lineal champ when he beat Ali to begin a new lineage. He was never a lineal champ before he faced Ali

Ali came out of retirement to fight Holmes,he retired after the 2nd spinks fight

[Spray_resistant]

He vacated the claim to the lineage. But you're right, RJJ was never technically the lineal champ. But the lineal champ is not always the best fighter in the division. Sometimes it's as worthless as a belt honestly.He retired the lineage, ending it and the next "lineal" champ is determined by the clear #1 and #2 contenders fighting in the division.

Zolt retired and was no longer a fighter when a new lineage was established. Like i said it was the same with Floyd retiring his WW lineage when he retired and there was a new lineal champ (margarito) when he came back 1.5 years later

I agree, Roy was clearly better than anyone at the time it feels odd to say it is not relevant but for the discussion we are having it isn't.

In some specific cases when you have two dominant fighter in one division yes lineage is created between those two top rated fighters when lineage is irreversibly broken which it was not in this case as Zsolt returned to 175 where he had a lineal claim which cannot be disputed and no one clearly established themselves as #1 or #2 since we still had Cloud and unbeaten "champion", Dawson, Pascal, Hopkins, and maybe some other paper belt holders.

As far as someone stepping away and relinquishing the claim as lineal champion, I ask who or what organization determines this? Lineage before established maybe be dependent on ABC titles but once established the titles then become meaningless and lineage transcends any sanctioning organization such as the case with Sergio currently for example. At 160 Sergio is the champ GGG or someone could unify all ABC titles and he is still just a top rated contender and not the champion until he beats the man who beat the man.

So here your burden of proof relies entirely on some kind of universally respected documentation stating what you are saying and since there is no clear boxing authority that can provide this on the matter of when lineage is vacated I do not see how you can provide that and the claim to lineage must be upheld as long as a lineal champion returns to a division no matter how much time has past.

[Russian Crushin]

Ali came out of retirement to fight Holmes,he retired after the 2nd spinks fight

Holmes didnt win the lineal title from Ali, because Ali didnt have it. He started a new one by beating him

[Sweet Pea 50]

I thought Ali was Lineal going into the first Frazier bout?

Am I wrong?

[Russian Crushin]

I agree, Roy was clearly better than anyone at the time it feels odd to say it is not relevant but for the discussion we are having it isn't.

In some specific cases when you have two dominant fighter in one division yes lineage is created between those two top rated fighters when lineage is irreversibly broken which it was not in this case as Zsolt returned to 175 where he had a lineal claim which cannot be disputed and no one clearly established themselves as #1 or #2 since we still had Cloud and unbeaten "champion", Dawson, Pascal, Hopkins, and maybe some other paper belt holders.

As far as someone stepping away and relinquishing the claim as lineal champion, I ask who or what organization determines this? Lineage before established maybe be dependent on ABC titles but once established the titles then become meaningless and lineage transcends any sanctioning organization such as the case with Sergio currently for example. At 160 Sergio is the champ GGG or someone could unify all ABC titles and he is still just a top rated contender and not the champion until he beats the man who beat the man.

So here your burden of proof relies entirely on some kind of universally respected documentation stating what you are saying and since there is no clear boxing authority that can provide this on the matter of when lineage is vacated I do not see how you can provide that and the claim to lineage must be upheld as long as a lineal champion returns to a division no matter how much time has past.

Lol i dont know what to tell you. He vacated the 175 title when he retired. Its simply revisionist history that he came back 11 months later, and should have somehow been the champ again. What if he never actually came back, or came back 15 years later? He retired and vacated the title, its pretty simple.

[Spray_resistant]

Holmes didnt win the lineal title from Ali, because Ali didnt have it. He started a new one by beating him

No he became lineal champ by beating Ali who got it back from Spinks when he lost it to him which Ali had initially when he beat big George.

[Russian Crushin]

I thought Ali was Lineal going into the first Frazier bout?

Am I wrong?

Ali retired and vacated the title, and then Frazier became the champ when he beat Ellis.

[Russian Crushin]

No he became lineal champ by beating Ali who got it back from Spinks when he lost it to him which Ali had initially when he beat big George.

Ali was not recognized as the HW champ when he faced Holmes. Holmes simply became recognized as the HW champ when he beat Ali. Ali retired therefore vacating his title like 1.5 years before that