Vitali's ATG Ranking?

[Mike Tyson77]

So Jimmy, does Vitali rank higher than Lewis?

I got this one jimmy, yes he does. How bout we have the fight in december? Title on the line, if Lewis is so much greater than Vitali surely he will take this fight and the $20 million dollar payday.

[yoz]

I got this one jimmy, yes he does. How bout we have the fight in december? Title on the line, if Lewis is so much greater than Vitali surely he will take this fight and the $20 million dollar payday.

What does Lewis have to prove, though? So, he was behind on the cards against Vitali - who cares? He brutalised his opponent's face into a stoppage.

[Mike Tyson77]

What does Lewis have to prove, though? So, he was behind on the cards against Vitali - who cares? He brutalised his opponent's face into a stoppage.

Vitali can still fight prize fights at age 41, why cant Lewis if he's so much greater than Vitali????

[jimmy1569]

So Jimmy, does Vitali rank higher than Lewis?

You compare both.. Vitali has been more dominant & showed less weaknesses in the ring. Vitali might not have the same names on his ledger but has proven to be superior. The numbers clearly show it & so does there 6 bloody rds against each other where VITALI SHOWED he was the superior boxer. Lennox has been outboxed.. he's been outslugged.. he's tasted canvas.. he's trailed on scorecards.. got shady decisions.. all things that have NEVER occurred in a Vitali Klitschko fight... if that isn't part of a resume.. then what is?

We can NOT strictly judge fighters by what there opponent does or doesn't do... sooner or later when we're talking alltime greats.. you judge on skill..size & strength of the actual fighter that's being interrogated. Vitali's opponents aren't on trial.. because in the end it's all opinion as to what you think of them. All credible evidence suggests in every way that Vitali has made his inferior opposition more inferior than they were against anyone else. That's how you gauge competition properly. It's Vitali the fighter that is on trial here.. is he not a fighter that has all the boxing intangibles & strengths to win a boxing match regardless of who he's facing? Has he NOT more than proven this by now?




You have 47 instances where he has.. you have all the achievements.. dominance.. skills.. size strength... THIS IS ALL RESUME..... JUST picking apart opposition & discarding most everything else is playing the fool & y'all are all fools for doing so. Vitali has clearly shown he can hold his own over ANY fighter in boxing history.. THAT'S 100% based on fighting evidence we have of him.... it's your choice to disregard the obvious... not mine.. I think they're both top 5 alltime great heavies but based on everything i've witnessed Vitali is the greatest heavyweight that ever lived & we will never see this type of dominance compubox wise ever again.

[Mike Tyson77]

You compare both.. Vitali has been more dominant & showed less weaknesses in the ring. Vitali might not have the same names on his ledger but has proven to be superior. The numbers clearly show it & so does there 6 bloody rds against each other where VITALI SHOWED he was the superior boxer. Lennox has been outboxed.. he's been outslugged.. he's tasted canvas.. he's trailed on scorecards.. got shady decisions.. all things that have NEVER occurred in a Vitali Klitschko fight... if that isn't part of a resume.. then what is?

We can NOT strictly judge fighters by what there opponent does or doesn't do... sooner or later when we're talking alltime greats.. you judge on skill..size & strength of the actual fighter that's being interrogated. Vitali's opponents aren't on trial.. because in the end it's all opinion as to what you think of them. All credible evidence suggests in every way that Vitali has made his inferior opposition more inferior than they were against anyone else. That's how you gauge competition properly. It's Vitali the fighter that is on trial here.. is he not a fighter that has all the boxing intangibles & strengths to win a boxing match regardless of who he's facing? Has he NOT more than proven this by now?




You have 47 instances where he has.. you have all the achievements.. dominance.. skills.. size strength... THIS IS ALL RESUME..... JUST picking apart opposition & discarding most everything else is playing the fool & y'all are all fools for doing so. Vitali has clearly shown he can hold his own over ANY fighter in boxing history.. THAT'S 100% based on fighting evidence we have of him.... it's your choice to disregard the obvious... not mine.. I think they're both top 5 alltime great heavies but based on everything i've witnessed Vitali is the greatest heavyweight that ever lived & we will never see this type of dominance compubox wise ever again.

well done, Vitalis style is hard to match up against, not to mention 6'7'' 250, he's a real monster in the ring.

[damuttz112]

Tell me how Ali OUTBOXES him? This i'd like to hear. Does he do a rope a dope? Vitali is a more accurate puncher than Foreman & has more ways of delivering a punch...but let's say Ali DOES make him miss.. IS he going to make him pay? Vitali has a jab to get to ALI

Ali would not look to rope-a-dope his strategy would be to stick & move to a UD or at least until a stoppage.

In my opinion here are some of the reasons on how Ali would trouble Vitali.

Ali can counter his jab.

Here, a 6'4 Bugner is pawing his jab, yet at first sight Ali can clearly counter with his right hand. Note: This is Ali in his second career; slowed reflexes, footwork etc.

Ali and the use of Lateral Movement; in his prime Ali was the quickest HW with blinding hand-speed & footwork. The ability to maneuver himself out of Vitali's immediate range plays a big part.

Here leaning back from Jabs.


Here Vitali in parts of Byrd fight struggles to make contact with him. Even with his unorthodox angles he is unable at times to land a clean punch. Due to Byrd's movement Vitali overcompensates to make contact and is open for the counter.

[damuttz112]

Here Ali is able to jump in against a 6'7 Terrell and explode into combinations before saftely moving out of Terells range.


Vitali tends to keep his hands low, but he does not have the equal movement or footwork of Ali. Here Lennox makes him pay.


Ali's speed/footwork the use of Lateral Movement and ability to counter whilst on the move create problems for Vitali. His ability to jab and explode into combinations and come back out of Vitali's intermediate range also poses problems for Klitschko. Who was the best at hitting and not getting hit? Ali. Who could hit on the back-foot? Ali. I think Ali would manage a 12-15 Round Unanimous Decision or maybe a late stoppage against Dr Ironfist.

[jimmy1569]

Here Ali is able to jump in against a 6'7 Terrell and explode into combinations before saftely moving out of Terells range.


Vitali tends to keep his hands low, but he does not have the equal movement or footwork of Ali. Here Lennox makes him pay.


Ali's speed/footwork the use of Lateral Movement and ability to counter whilst on the move create problems for Vitali. His ability to jab and explode into combinations and come back out of Vitali's intermediate range also poses problems for Klitschko. Who was the best at hitting and not getting hit? Ali. Who could hit on the back-foot? Ali. I think Ali would manage a 12-15 Round Unanimous Decision or maybe a late stoppage against Dr Ironfist.

Wow... i clearly underestimated you. I appreciate the analysis.. shows me that you're not just talking out of your azzzzz but actually believe in what you're stating. With that being said.. the examples you gave & the comparisons you made were off par..... starting with comparing a Bugner jab to a Klitschko one & giving Ali full clearance to get past it... then you show an example of a guy with similar size to Klitschko getting beaten to the punch.


Now i have no qualms with what you stated about Ali being fast & having great defense.. esp in his prime but he was no Chris Byrd on D.. Ali was more hittable.. Byrd was a defensive specialist & all he wanted to do was make you miss as he relied on deft reflexes to save the day... Wladimir had more success because of more patience. Vitali was overly aggressive vs Byrd because of inexperience having KO'ED every single opponent before Byrd.


Getting back to Ali vs Klitschko... i have no doubt Ali would be one of the very few boxers in history that would present Klitschko with a boxing dilemma. First off Ali could take a punch.. so he wouldn't get scared to get hit by Vitali & was fast enough & perhaps had enough of a reach to actually get to Klitschko relying on his speed & reflexes to try to get in & out. But even the great Ali would NOT STAND a chance of outboxing Klitschko unless he took chances...




Klitschko simply could reach Ali easier than the other way around.. perhaps Ali is the ONLY heavyweight i could think of that on occasion can possibly make Vitali miss wide & most importantly make him pay while doing so... sadly I just don't see Ali throwing enough punches & taking enough chances. Klitschko never stops throwing punches.... you can compare the Solis fight in howver it lasted as to what an Ali/Klitschko showdown would look like. Solis was fast enough to get in and out as Ali would've been but didn't dance as well. Ali would be Solis with the skills & handspeed but have the footwork to go along with it..




I'd probably give Ali a unanimous decision loss if it's a 12 rd fight & a tko loss if it's 15 rds. Simply put Ali would NOT be busy enough knowing the incoming that is heading towards him.... & btw Vitali Klitschko holds the record for the getting hit to not getting hit ratio for heavyweights in terms of volume... this means he did way more hitting than Ali while avoiding incoming... offense/defense ratio (obviously the Lewis fight doesn't show this but he's had 46 other fights where it's mostly been a landslide of hitting as opposed to getting hit discrepancy.

[damuttz112]

Wow... i clearly underestimated you. I appreciate the analysis.. shows me that you're not just talking out of your azzzzz but actually believe in what you're stating. With that being said.. the examples you gave & the comparisons you made were off par..... starting with comparing a Bugner jab to a Klitschko one & giving Ali full clearance to get past it... then you show an example of a guy with similar size to Klitschko getting beaten to the punch.

The reason I chose Bugner & Terrell is that they were Ali's tallest opponents who were tall 6'4/6'7 and weighed over 220lb, at least resembling the Klitschkho's. I can make a balanced reference to these guys in correlation to their physicality. (e.g. I can't use Frazier, Quarry etc)

Now i have no qualms with what you stated about Ali being fast & having great defense.. esp in his prime but he was no Chris Byrd on D.. Ali was more hittable.. Byrd was a defensive specialist & all he wanted to do was make you miss as he relied on deft reflexes to save the day... Wladimir had more success because of more patience. Vitali was overly aggressive vs Byrd because of inexperience having KO'ED every single opponent before Byrd.

That's not the point, the point is Vitali had trouble with fast moving boxers who use lateral movement. (Note: Ali had Ridiculous Slickness)

Although Vitali may be more patient, Ali speed would be able to out-jab him;

Angelo Dundee - “Muhammad would have moved in and out, side to side, popped him with the jab and fast combinations. Vitali relies on the jab but Muhammad would have smothered his jab and hit him with his own - time and again."

Getting back to Ali vs Klitschko... i have no doubt Ali would be one of the very few boxers in history that would present Klitschko with a boxing dilemma. First off Ali could take a punch.. so he wouldn't get scared to get hit by Vitali & was fast enough & perhaps had enough of a reach to actually get to Klitschko relying on his speed & reflexes to try to get in & out. But even the great Ali would NOT STAND a chance of outboxing Klitschko unless he took chances...

That is why I believe in Muhammad, unlike Haye or Other Klitschko opponents Ali would not be afraid to let his punches go. Foreman, Lyle, Williams, even shavers he took alot of punishment and had him going in the final round.

Klitschko simply could reach Ali easier than the other way around.. perhaps Ali is the ONLY heavyweight i could think of that on occasion can possibly make Vitali miss wide & most importantly make him pay while doing so... sadly I just don't see Ali throwing enough punches & taking enough chances. Klitschko never stops throwing punches.... you can compare the Solis fight in howver it lasted as to what an Ali/Klitschko showdown would look like. Solis was fast enough to get in and out as Ali would've been but didn't dance as well. Ali would be Solis with the skills & handspeed but have the footwork to go along with it..

Vitali wingspan is 80' the same as Ali. Ali is superior to Solis in many ways than one. It is not a good comparison. Ali would take every chance he's a totally as evidenced to his second career his gifts slowed down, but he still found a way to success.

I'd probably give Ali a unanimous decision loss if it's a 12 rd fight & a tko loss if it's 15 rds. Simply put Ali would NOT be busy enough knowing the incoming that is heading towards him.... & btw Vitali Klitschko holds the record for the getting hit to not getting hit ratio for heavyweights in terms of volume... this means he did way more hitting than Ali while avoiding incoming... offense/defense ratio (obviously the Lewis fight doesn't show this but he's had 46 other fights where it's mostly been a landslide of hitting as opposed to getting hit discrepancy.

Remember Ali fought in 12 & 15 Rounders, he always finished strong in the championship rounds and had great stamina. Although a spirited performance by Vitali he was exhausted against Lennox in the fifth round. Ali can sustain such a pace for a complete 15 rounds.

Dundee - “Vitali would never hit him with that right. He was too fast and would have easily seen the right coming. Muhammad’s opponents could never believe how quick his reflexes were. No disrespect, but Vitali would have been shocked. It would have been an ugly fight. Muhammad would have won an easy decision or maybe the ref would have stopped it as Vitali got banged up. Not to take anything away from Vitali. He is special. But it is just a matter of styles and Muhammad has the style to deal with Vitali.”

Last but not least, as evidence by his condition today. Ali had the ultimate will. This is the department where Vitali has flaws, whether it's the Lewis fight or when he retired in the ninth round due to injuries against Byrd these are things that Muhammad will test. Norton broke his jaw, Chuvalo gave him bleeding kidneys and Frazier made him urinate blood for a week. Of all his gifts of speed, reflexes, fleet of foot, chin, his will is what ultimately made him great. Ali UD or Late Stoppage.

[jimmy1569]

The reason I chose Bugner & Terrell is that they were Ali's tallest opponents who were tall 6'4/6'7 and weighed over 220lb, at least resembling the Klitschkho's. I can make a balanced reference to these guys in correlation to their physicality. (e.g. I can't use Frazier, Quarry etc)



That's not the point, the point is Vitali had trouble with fast moving boxers who use lateral movement. (Note: Ali had Ridiculous Slickness)

Although Vitali may be more patient, Ali speed would be able to out-jab him;

Angelo Dundee - “Muhammad would have moved in and out, side to side, popped him with the jab and fast combinations. Vitali relies on the jab but Muhammad would have smothered his jab and hit him with his own - time and again."



That is why I believe in Muhammad, unlike Haye or Other Klitschko opponents Ali would not be afraid to let his punches go. Foreman, Lyle, Williams, even shavers he took alot of punishment and had him going in the final round.



Vitali wingspan is 80' the same as Ali. Ali is superior to Solis in many ways than one. It is not a good comparison. Ali would take every chance he's a totally as evidenced to his second career his gifts slowed down, but he still found a way to success.



Remember Ali fought in 12 & 15 Rounders, he always finished strong in the championship rounds and had great stamina. Although a spirited performance by Vitali he was exhausted against Lennox in the fifth round. Ali can sustain such a pace for a complete 15 rounds.

Dundee - “Vitali would never hit him with that right. He was too fast and would have easily seen the right coming. Muhammad’s opponents could never believe how quick his reflexes were. No disrespect, but Vitali would have been shocked. It would have been an ugly fight. Muhammad would have won an easy decision or maybe the ref would have stopped it as Vitali got banged up. Not to take anything away from Vitali. He is special. But it is just a matter of styles and Muhammad has the style to deal with Vitali.”

Last but not least, as evidence by his condition today. Ali had the ultimate will. This is the department where Vitali has flaws, whether it's the Lewis fight or when he retired in the ninth round due to injuries against Byrd these are things that Muhammad will test. Norton broke his jaw, Chuvalo gave him bleeding kidneys and Frazier made him urinate blood for a week. Of all his gifts of speed, reflexes, fleet of foot, chin, his will is what ultimately made him great. Ali UD or Late Stoppage.

I gave you credit but then you & angelo Dundee went & rolled a serious blunt on Vitali's behalf. First off.. you do know Vitali has NEVER been outjabbed or beaten to the jab for a duration of a bout.. How is Ali gonna take away his jab when Vitali is on the offensive & then come back with his own without any sort of retaliation. Vitali has missed wide as evidenced by the Johnson & Byrd fights but he still ONLY lost one rd out of the 21 that he fought against both.

IF ALi kept taking chances he would get damaged like every other Klitschko opponent..... there is no way in hell that anyone can outbox him & there is no evidence you can put Klitschko on his azzzz... YET time & time i hear that it could be done by a prime Lewis or Ali when it's happened to those fighters numerous times by lesser fighters than Klitschko



How many times in Ali's career has he been potentially outboxed or gotten shady decisions.. at least a handful... you can say this about most if Not ALL of the alltime greats not named Klitschko.. his brother however dominant has been on his aszsss nearly a dozen times.



Vitali Klitschko has shown the fewest weaknesses out of any heavyweight champion that's ever been...... his ONLY known weakness is a cut & a shoulder ailment.... that's it.. that's all you got on him.. When will people realize that's not enough of an advantage for any opponent to be favored against him when he's got size. strength advantages over 99 % of all the boxers who have ever lived.

Dundee is obviously on Ali's nutz so i don't expect any less favoritism from him. I just can't fathom a fighter could be this dominant where his career is nearly a perfect shutout & have it this questioned as to it's legitimacy. In EVERY single other sport with obviously the exception of this one.... the most dominant performer is it's best ever. MJ... gREETZKY... wOODS.... ALI is magic Johnson... Vitali KLitschko is MJ according to all the numbers & statistical data..certainly not as exciting or spectacular but the same immaculate dominance for an entire career.