Comments Thread For: Vitali Klitschko: Chisora Will Be The Challenge I Need

[jimmy1569]

Alphabet title holders have nothing to do with the lineal championship. Why do you keep bringing up alphabet titles, when I've already made that point so many times now?

The lineal title was vacant at that time. A new lineal champion could only be crowned if the two highest ranked fighters in the division fought each other (or in exceptional circumstances, if the #1 and #3 fought, but there were no genuinely exceptional circumstances at that time, so it had to be #1 vs #2).

Vitali was ranked #1 but Byrd was ranked #2, not Sanders. To win the lineal title Vitali would have had to rematch Byrd but he didn't.

Ok... now i got the answers... so basically it's all about where you're ranked at the time regardless of Byrd having a belt or not.. i'm assuming Ruiz or Sanders was at #3... kind of a shady process as basically vitali destroying the fighter (Sander) who just beat an alltime great in his brother & Sanders was a legitimate beltholder same as Byrd before relinquishing it to fight Vitali... that should've been lineage on principal F the whacked rankings.

[JAB5239]

Ok... now i got the answers... so basically it's all about where you're ranked at the time regardless of Byrd having a belt or not.. i'm assuming Ruiz or Sanders was at #3... kind of a shady process as basically vitali destroying the fighter (Sander) who just beat an alltime great in his brother & Sanders was a legitimate beltholder same as Byrd before relinquishing it to fight Vitali... that should've been lineage on principal F the whacked rankings.

If only Vitaly rematched the man he quit to he may have been considered the champ today. Fact is he'll never be considered the champ because he ducked Byrd and won't fight his brother. (sniffle)

[Dave Rado]

This really kinda doesn't make sense & is all based on rankings that are potentially corrupt to begin with..

Rankings only come into it when the lineal title is vacant. Once there is a lineal champion the only way to become the champion is to beat the champion, which is how it should be.

The idea of the lineal title was created by boxing historians and given publicity by The Ring who created their own title based on it, in response to (a) the obviously totally corrupt rankings of all of the alphabet organisations, (b) the fact that those organisations kept stripping people of their titles for spurious reasons, and (c) the fact that by definition it is only possible for there to be one world champion at a given weight at a given time. It is an oxymoron to claim that two people are simultaneously the champion of the world. That's a contradiction in terms.

By far the most respected of the independent rankings is The Ring's, because of the fact that their rankings are created in consultation with a panel of nearly 40 boxing experts from all over the world who mostly don't work for The Ring. Occasionally some respected boxing historians do disagree with The Ring about who the lineal champion is, but mostly that only happens when The Ring breaks its own rules, not usually because of a disagreement about rankings. Occasionally the latter does happen though. For instance, The Ring currently considers the lineal Welterweight title to be vacant whereas many boxing historians, including boxingscene's consider Mayweather to be the lineal champion currently, and that disagreement is due to a disagreement about what Pacquiao's ranking should have been at the time that Mayweather fought Mosley. (Mayweather vs Mosley could only be considered to have been for the lineal title if you ranked Pacquiao outside the top 2 at the time, which many did because of the Cotto fight being at catchweight, but The Ring ranked Pacquiao #1 at that time).

All of the major independent rankings (The Ring's, espn's, boxingscene's, yahoo's and boxrec's) are far less prone to corruption and are far more respected by almost anyone who knows anything about boxing than any of the alphabet organisation's rankings. The above independent rankings are all genuine attempts by genuine boxing experts to rank people based on their accomplishments (except in the case of boxrec's, which is computerised, but theirs is still based on actual accomplishments), whereas the alphabet organisations' rankings mostly bear no relationship whatsoever to reality and are often blatantly corrupt. And they all strip people for the most ridiculous reasons all the time, e.g. Martinez.

Wouldn't Wlad beating Byrd for his belt been for lineage first?

Coming into that fight Wlad was only ranked #8. After that fight he was ranked #1, but he didn't fight any of the fighters who were ranked #2 from then onwards. (Byrd's ranking plummeted after that fight).

So you're telling me that when Wlad faced Chagaev it was the first viable scenario of #1 facing #2 or #3?

As I keep saying, when the title is vacant the #1 and #2 have to fight each other except in truly exceptional circumstances, when the #1 and #3 can fight each other. When Wlad fought Chagaev it was a truly exceptional circumstance because the #2 at the time was his brother and he couldn't be expected to fight him. There had been no previous occasion since Lewis retired when the #1 and #2 had fought, and nor had there been an occasion when the #1 and #3 had fought at a time when there was a genuine reason why it was impossible for the #1 and #2 to fight - until the Wlad-Chagaev fight.

Where were Sanders & Vitali ranked when they fought?

As I've already said several times, they were ranked #1 and #3, and there was no good reason why the #1 couldn't have fought the #2 either then or soon after. If Vitali had rematched Byrd (who was #2) immediately after he'd beaten Sanders, he'd have been universally recognised by boxing historians as the lineal champion.

[SirTomJones]

If only Vitaly rematched the man he quit to he may have been considered the champ today. Fact is he'll never be considered the champ because he ducked Byrd and won't fight his brother. (sniffle)

Vitali was recovering from a torn shoulder tendon after losing to Byrd. He was then out of the gym for 6 months after suffering the injury

By then he lost a wide UD to Wlad.

as for you mentioning Vitali not fighting Wlad, you must be an idiot. this isn't tennis.

[JAB5239]

Rankings only come into it when the lineal title is vacant. Once there is a lineal champion the only way to become the champion is to beat the champion, which is how it should be.

The idea of the lineal title was created by boxing historians and given publicity by The Ring who created their own title based on it, in response to (a) the obviously totally corrupt rankings of all of the alphabet organisations, (b) the fact that those organisations kept stripping people of their titles for spurious reasons, and (c) the fact that by definition it is only possible for there to be one world champion at a given weight at a given time. It is an oxymoron to claim that two people are simultaneously the champion of the world. That's a contradiction in terms.

By far the most respected of the independent rankings is The Ring's, because of the fact that their rankings are created in consultation with a panel of nearly 40 boxing experts from all over the world who mostly don't work for The Ring. Occasionally some respected boxing historians do disagree with The Ring about who the lineal champion is, but mostly that only happens when The Ring break its own rules, not usually because of a disagreement about rankings. Occasionally the latter does happen though. For instance, The Ring currently considers the lineal Welterweight title to be vacant whereas many boxing historians, including boxingscene's consider Mayweather to be the lineal champion currently, and that disagreement is due to a disagreement about what Pacquiao's ranking should have been at the time that Mayweather fought Mosley. (Mayweather vs Mosley could only be considered to have been for the lineal title if you ranked Pacquiao outside the top 2 at the time, which many did because of the Cotto fight being at catchweight, but The Ring ranked Pacquiao #1 at that time).

All of the major independent rankings (The Ring's, espn's, boxingscene's, yahoo's and boxrec's) are far less prone to corruption and are far more respected by almost anyone who knows anything about boxing than any of the alphabet organisation's rankings.



Coming into that fight Wlad was only ranked #8. After that fight he was ranked #1, but he didn't fight any of the fighters who were ranked #2 from then onwards. (Byrd's ranking plummeted after that fight).



As I keep saying, when the title is vacant the #1 and #2 have to fight each other except in truly exceptional circumstances, when the #1 and #3 can fight each other. When Wlad fought Chagaev it was a truly exceptional circumstance because the #2 at the time was his brother and he couldn't be expected to fight him. There had been no previous occasion since Lewis retired when the #1 and #2 had fought, and nor had there been an occasion when the #1 and #3 had fought at a time when there was a genuine reason why it was impossible for the #1 and #2 to fight, prior to the Wlad-Chagaev fight.



As I've already said several times, they were ranked #1 and #3, and there was no good reason why the #1 couldn't have fought the #2 either then or soon after. If Vitali had rematched Byrd immediately after he'd beaten Sanders, he'd have been universally recognised by boxing historians as the lineal champion.

He's not going to get it Dave, because he doesn't want to get it. It doesn't go with his agenda.

[JAB5239]

Vitali was recovering from a torn shoulder tendon after losing to Byrd. He was then out of the gym for 6 months after suffering the injury

By then he lost a wide UD to Wlad.

Yet he fought a month after the Byrd/Wlad fight. Are you telling me Wlad wouldn't have stepped aside and not made this fight had Vitaly wanted that?

as for you mentioning Vitali not fighting Wlad, you must be an idiot. this isn't tennis.

Tsk, tsk, tsk with the name calling Tom. Did I not point out a fact?

[jimmy1569]

If only Vitaly rematched the man he quit to he may have been considered the champ today. Fact is he'll never be considered the champ because he ducked Byrd and won't fight his brother. (sniffle)

You know for once... i'll have to agree with you.. he should've smashed Byrd's face in on principal alone.. the fact he let his brother do it twice irks me as well. I definitely would've rather seen him beat up the guy who just ktfo his little bro but afterwards Chris should've been next... dunno if Don King was involved at the time but Byrd should've been as high a priority as Haye is now... happy now.

[JAB5239]

You know for once... i'll have to agree with you.. he should've smashed Byrd's face in on principal alone.. the fact he let his brother do it twice irks me as well. I definitely would've rather seen him beat up the guy who just ktfo his little bro but afterwards Chris should've been next... dunno if Don King was involved at the time but Byrd should've been as high a priority as Haye is now... happy now.

Jimmy, I don't want you to agree because Im right. I want you to agree so you're a reasonable boxing fan. I think people admire your passion, just not your skewered views.

[jimmy1569]

He's not going to get it Dave, because he doesn't want to get it. It doesn't go with his agenda.

I do get it... that's why I was trying to find out about it. Doesn't mean i agree with the concept. I do agree wholeheartedly with the man beating the man who beat the man but when that's not possible... i don't like the scenario of 1&2 duking it out because sometimes 1&2 aren't REALLY one & 2... the more viable option is duking it out for the belt that the lineage champion gave up for adoption.. Didn't joe Frazier become undisputed before he fought ALI even though he was technically holding ALI's belts for him until he came back... same as when Peter.. Maskaev & Rahman were holding Vitali's belt until he came back..point is these fighters.. WELL fRAZIER at least retrieved the belts the lineage guy had last... i think Lineage should be about the belt when the fighter who had it last has retired..deceased.. stripped or what have you & not about The highest ranked fighters vying for it... just my opinion.

[jimmy1569]

Jimmy, I don't want you to agree because Im right. I want you to agree so you're a reasonable boxing fan. I think people admire your passion, just not your skewered views.

Look... i'll be the first to admit after the bravado has died down that I have no clue why that rematch wasn't made when his brother got to fight him twice after Vitali did. I do realize & I can't get into Vitali's mind here that somehow Vitali was turned off by Byrd's style & perhaps was concerned that the rotator cuff injury could happen again.. afterall Vitali is Only human...& might've just wanted to stay away from a fighter who's sole purpose was to make him miss. Later on he did show against Kevin Johnson that he can indeed restrain himself from headhunting when a fighter is in there just to play exceptional D.. hE might've gained confidence from that.. but by that time Byrd was out of the game & perhaps also in his mind Wlad was his brother's keeper on this one & he figured Wlad could handle Byrd's style better because of his less aggressive fighting stance... just an honest appraisal here.. since you're being cordial.