Comments Thread For: Vitali Klitschko: Chisora Will Be The Challenge I Need

[Dave Rado]

Lennox relinquished the LAST remaining link to the Lineal title he had when he unified again st Hol.yfield. He gave all 3 belts away rather than face it's eventual successor. He gave up the WBC belt which was the LAST remaining link to the lineage & Sanders & Klitschko fought for it. Vitali WON & therefore was the first to have that last remaining belt that the last lineage holder had. The Wba & Ibf belts Lennox gave away to Ruiz & Byrd were part of that Lineage. The LAST belt held by a Lineage champion is THE last one recognized as the one that continues the Lineage. Vitali EVENTUALLY GOT THAT belt back by beating Peter & This is why he always states proudly before his fights that he's got the belt that Ali. Tyson & Lewis had.

Alphabet belts mean nothing. The lineal title is the only world title that means anything. The lineal title can only be lost if a fighter is beaten. retires, or moves to another division. Lewis lost the title when he retired.

As for the WBC belt, if you seriously think that an organisation that considers Erik Morales to be the World Jr Welterweight champion, or Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. to be the World Middleweight champion, has the slightest shred of credibility, then words fail me.

[jimmy1569]

Alphabet belts mean nothing. The lineal title is the only world title that means anything. The lineal title can only be lost if a fighter is beaten. retires, or moves to another division. Lewis lost the title when he retired.

As for the WBC belt, if you seriously think that an organisation that considers Erik Morales to be the World Jr Welterweight champion, or Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. to be the World Middleweight champion, has the slightest shred of credibility, then words fail me.

So according to this theory.. a whole new LINEAGE has to be created by fragmented belts & until Wlad gets Vitali's Wbc BELT.. he can't start a new lineage? Does this mean the brother's have joint custody of the lineage championship? Or does this mean there's NO lineage belt left once someone retires with it altogther forgetting the all important fact that Lewis was stripped of it for Not facing Vitali.. also forgetting that Vitali is SOLELY responsible for retiring Lewis in the first place & REALLY should've had that belt to begin with after there bout if not for some crooked DR. on the payroll... thx for playing!

[Dave Rado]

So according to this theory.. a whole new LINEAGE has to be created by fragmented belts & until Wlad gets Vitali's Wbc BELT.. he can't start a new lineage? Does this mean the brother's have joint custody of the lineage championship? Or does this mean there's NO lineage belt left once someone retires with it altogther forgetting the all important fact that Lewis was stripped of it for Not facing Vitali.. also forgetting that Vitali is SOLELY responsible for retiring Lewis in the first place & REALLY should've had that belt to begin with after there bout if not for some crooked DR. on the payroll... thx for playing!

The lineal title has nothing to do with belts. Wlad would be considered the lineal champion even if he threw all his belts in the bin. And no one can be stripped of a lineal title. And Vitali has never been considered to be the lineal champion. You obviously have no idea what the lineal title is. It has nothing whatsoever to do with belts.

[jimmy1569]

Alphabet belts mean nothing. The lineal title is the only world title that means anything. The lineal title can only be lost if a fighter is beaten. retires, or moves to another division. Lewis lost the title when he retired.

As for the WBC belt, if you seriously think that an organisation that considers Erik Morales to be the World Jr Welterweight champion, or Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. to be the World Middleweight champion, has the slightest shred of credibility, then words fail me.

You're saying Lennox retired with some form of lineage WBC belt is all he had left & now you're trashing the one belt you claim was the last link to LL lineage. Are you even listening to what you're saying? What don't you get about Lewis fragmenting each & every belt that was unified vs Holyfield in there second bout? & Don't be fooled by LL retiring with belt intact... he was about to get stripped because he was holding up that belt & NOT facing anyone let alone the guy who sent him into the retirement home.... basically LL retired with his tail behind his legs & holding onto the title right on the deadline be4 he got stripped.

The fact that Vitali could've done the SAME exact thing by just stating he was retiring with the belt instead of trying to face RAHMAN through numerous injuries but ultimately did the right thing by giving up ownership of it so HE can indeed retire IS what sets him apart from Lewis.. Vitali holds the lineage whether you like it or not... he more than earned it in the ring & against Lewis.. If Lewis is retired with the Lineage in his mom's crib... then the lineage championship is nothing but a tale... THE belt & the fighter who had it last makes the lineage... or we can just state that Rocky Marciano had it last & died with it.

[jimmy1569]

The lineal title has nothing to do with belts. Wlad would be considered the lineal champion even if he threw all his belts in the bin. And no one can be stripped of a lineal title. And Vitali has never been considered to be the lineal champion. You obviously have no idea what the lineal title is. It has nothing whatsoever to do with belts.

How does Wlad have it now? When he didn't beat the guy who had it last.. doesn't own the last piece of property tracing the last person who had lineage. So if one retires as the lineage champion without being defeated or dies like Marciano....how is the new Lineage formed.. shouldn't it become obsolete? I was under the impression.. it was the man who beat the man who beat the man & if that cycle gets broken... then a whole new lineage has to start? Then wouldn't that begin with an undisputed champion laying claim to new lineage.. WHILE wLAD does have 75% CLAIM TO THAT.. technically it should be the Klitschko family name as the sole proprietor's to new lineage... no? AM i missing something HERE?

[Dave Rado]

You're saying Lennox retired with some form of lineage WBC belt is all he had left

You obviously didn't read my previous post. Belts have absolutely nothing to do with the lineal championship. The lineage is based on beating the previous holder of the lineal title, except when the title becomes vacant due to retirement, in which case the lineage restarts when the #1 and #2 in the division square off, regardless of whether they hold any belts or not - or in exceptional circumstances, when the #1 and #3 square off. Have you seriously never come across the concept of the lineal title before? It's the only title in boxing that has a shred of integrity, and it's the only one that boxing historians care about.

[Dave Rado]

How does Wlad have it now? When he didn't beat the guy who had it last.. doesn't own the last piece of property tracing the last person who had lineage. So if one retires as the lineage champion without being defeated or dies like Marciano....how is the new Lineage formed.. shouldn't it become obsolete? I was under the impression.. it was the man who beat the man who beat the man & if that cycle gets broken... then a whole new lineage has to start? Then wouldn't that begin with an undisputed champion laying claim to new lineage.. WHILE wLAD does have 75% CLAIM TO THAT.. technically it should be the Klitschko family name as the sole proprietor's to new lineage... no? AM i missing something HERE?

See my previous post. As I've posted several times in this thread, when the lineal title becomes vacant a new champion can only be crowned when the #1 and #2 in the division face off, or in genuinely exceptional circumstances (where there are good reasons why it would be impossible to make that fight), then a new champion can be crowned when the #1 and #3 face off.

When Wlad fought Chagaev, it was #1 vs. #3 and because no one considered that Wlad should have to fight his brother, who was ranked #2, it was considered to be an exceptional circumstance under the above rules, and therefore Wlad was recognised as the lineal champion. See here.

[jimmy1569]

You obviously didn't read my previous post. Belts have absolutely nothing to do with the lineal championship. The lineage is based on beating the previous holder of the lineal title, except when the title becomes vacant due to retirement, in which case the lineage restarts when the #1 and #2 in the division square off, regardless of whether they hold any belts or not - or in exceptional circumstances, when the #1 and #3 square off. Have you seriously never come across the concept of the lineal title before? It's the only title in boxing that has a shred of integrity, and it's the only one that boxing historians care about.

So how didn't Vitali have it when he faced Sanders...... iF BYRD & rUIZ were the other title holders at the time & Sanders had just relinquished the Wbo BELT so he could vy for the more prestigious at the time WBC belt.. Byrd & Ruiz WOULD have to be considered one or two then... but they didn't fight each other... so wouldn't Sanders & Klitschko be the closest available fighter to #1 & # 2 facing off... forget the fact they were facing off for the last belt the last lineage champion possessed.... ???

[Dave Rado]

So how didn't Vitali have it when he faced Sanders...... iF BYRD & rUIZ were the other title holders at the time & Sanders had just relinquished the Wbo BELT so he could vy for the more prestigious at the time WBC belt.. Byrd & Ruiz WOULD have to be considered one or two then... but they didn't fight each other... so wouldn't Sanders & Klitschko be the closest available fighter to #1 & # 2 facing off... forget the fact they were facing off for the last belt the last lineage champion possessed.... ???

Alphabet title holders have nothing to do with the lineal championship. Why do you keep bringing up alphabet titles, when I've already made that point so many times now?

The lineal title was vacant at that time. A new lineal champion could only be crowned if the two highest ranked fighters in the division fought each other (or in exceptional circumstances, if the #1 and #3 fought, but there were no genuinely exceptional circumstances at that time, so it had to be #1 vs #2).

Vitali was ranked #1 but Byrd was ranked #2, not Sanders. To win the lineal title Vitali would have had to rematch Byrd but he didn't.

[jimmy1569]

See my previous post. As I've posted several times in this thread, when the lineal title becomes vacant a new champion can only be crowned when the #1 and #2 in the division face off, or in genuinely exceptional circumstances (where there are good reasons why it would be impossible to make that fight), then a new champion can be crowned when the #1 and #3 face off.

When Wlad fought Chagaev, it was #1 vs. #3 and because no one considered that Wlad should have to fight his brother, who was ranked #2, it was considered to be an exceptional circumstance under the above rules, and therefore Wlad was recognised as the lineal champion. See here.

This really kinda doesn't make sense & is all based on rankings that are potentially corrupt to begin with.. Wouldn't Wlad beating Byrd for his belt been for lineage first? Where was Byrd ranked at the time? So you're telling me that when Wlad faced Chagaev it was the first viable scenario of #1 facing #2 or #3? Where were Sanders & Vitali ranked when they fought? who was #1 at the time.. Byrd/ Ruiz? So WHAT you're saying is that until that possible scenario happens with a #1 facing a #2 OR IN THis extreme case a #3 the lineage is on hold? & Who'S RANKINGS are we basing this on anyways? Seems like a really shady title if you ask me & not much more prestigious than a paper belt if that's how it's deciphered... i'd rather have the belts make the fighter.