Vitali Klitschko vs Joe Louis - Who wins?

[Mr. Invincible]

I disagree. Louis wouldn't have near the trouble landing you think. His handspeed would allow him to get places men like Peter couldn't dream and he'd make Vitali miss more than Vitali is used to. One handed, telegraphing Corrie Sanders landed and almost dropped him, made it a good fight before his lack conditioning and the incoming swamped him. Lewis, fat and slow, didn't struggle to land. They were taller, but technically inferior to Louis. Louis would hit Vitali more than anyone he's ever seen.

First off, in the modern era, you could actually tell how fast a fighter really is with the the modern cameras, etc.....but to say that Sanders telegraphs his left hand is maniacal. He has probably the fastest straight southpaw left hand of all time. He managed to make the fight interesting because he is dangerous and threw that money shot so damn well. But he got dominated while Wlad was knocked out by him in two.

Next, Lennox wasn't anything near shot, out of shape or slow. That's just a popular thing to say to belittle Vitali. Try something original and more truthful.

[ßringer]

Next, Lennox wasn't anything near shot, out of shape or slow. That's just a popular thing to say to belittle Vitali. Try something original and more truthful.

Now you're stretching it quite a bit.

Granted I wouldn't say Lewis was "shot", but how could you say he wasn't slow and out of shape in his fight with Vitali? IIRC, he entered the ring at the highest weight of his career, and his body was clearly soft, and untrained.

[Mr. Invincible]

Okay I'll take this one since I'm bored and then have you ignore it and continue.

How in the world is Sam Peter or Brewster better than Max Baer? You either know little of Baer or have to be trolling. I see no way, at all, that either of those men beat Baer.

Talking about chins? Baer by far had one of the best chins ever. He withstood punch after punch from some of the hardest hitters ever. And certainly harder hitting than Peter or Brewster (and more skilled). Joe Louis was even teeing off on Baer and was unable to knock him out cold as he did to nearly everyone else. Baer went down and quit (pretty much what Morales did against Pac in their 3rd fight). If you really care though, just google his punch resistance as I imagine you wont take my word for it.

Power? Ring Magazine ranks Max Baer as #22 for the best punchers ever. Peter and Brewster are not on the list. Smaller gloves did not matter. The video below talks about mma gloves (similar size to boxing gloves from years ago) vs current boxing gloves.


And if you still dont want to believe me and dont want to look it up for yourself, then you pretty much have to agree that Baer has either an incredible chin or is one of the best punchers ever. If you still believe the smaller gloves were the reason he scored the KO's then you have to reaize that he took hard shots from those same smaller gloves which proves he has an iron chin.

Saying glove size don't matter is kind of insane. If that was the case, heavyweights would use the same gloves that flyweights wear. And, seriously, anything saying that MMA gloves don't allow more force than a way more padded boxing glove is either an idiot or an advocate of the sport being sanctioned in NY. It's more of a physics thing than boxing but it's not too hard to figure out.

[crold1]

First off, in the modern era, you could actually tell how fast a fighter really is with the the modern cameras, etc.....but to say that Sanders telegraphs his left hand is maniacal. He has probably the fastest straight southpaw left hand of all time. He managed to make the fight interesting because he is dangerous and threw that money shot so damn well. But he got dominated while Wlad was knocked out by him in two.

Next, Lennox wasn't anything near shot, out of shape or slow. That's just a popular thing to say to belittle Vitali. Try something original and more truthful.

Most fight film from the mid-30s forward is at real speed and guages speed as good as anything today (if not in HD). Sanders was a low stamina mediocrity with one real good weapon, an iffy chin, questionable professionalism, and one good win no matter how you slice it. He showed up 10 pounds heavier for Vit than Wlad and got wasted by the ultimate pro, embarassing himself by showing visibly up out of shape. One thing to be said for both brothers...they put in WORK in the gym. You got to pack a lunch to have a shot at beating them. And of course it was telegraphed. It was all he had.

The same or similar of course can be said of a ton of Louis foes. Louis didn't fight in a particularly great era and cleaned out a lot of chaff. I still think, both at their best, what Louis does well takes advantage of the size of Klitschko and his combination speed and precision win out.

[crold1]

Now you're stretching it quite a bit.

Granted I wouldn't say Lewis was "shot", but how could you say he wasn't slow and out of shape in his fight with Vitali? IIRC, he entered the ring at the highest weight of his career, and his body was clearly soft, and untrained.

Lewis was, literally, in the worst shape of his career.

[Joeyzagz]

Okay I'll take this one since I'm bored and then have you ignore it and continue.

How in the world is Sam Peter or Brewster better than Max Baer? You either know little of Baer or have to be trolling. I see no way, at all, that either of those men beat Baer.

Talking about chins? Baer by far had one of the best chins ever. He withstood punch after punch from some of the hardest hitters ever. And certainly harder hitting than Peter or Brewster (and more skilled). Joe Louis was even teeing off on Baer and was unable to knock him out cold as he did to nearly everyone else. Baer went down and quit (pretty much what Morales did against Pac in their 3rd fight). If you really care though, just google his punch resistance as I imagine you wont take my word for it.

Power? Ring Magazine ranks Max Baer as #22 for the best punchers ever. Peter and Brewster are not on the list. Smaller gloves did not matter. The video below talks about mma gloves (similar size to boxing gloves from years ago) vs current boxing gloves.


And if you still dont want to believe me and dont want to look it up for yourself, then you pretty much have to agree that Baer has either an incredible chin or is one of the best punchers ever. If you still believe the smaller gloves were the reason he scored the KO's then you have to reaize that he took hard shots from those same smaller gloves which proves he has an iron chin.

Great Post.

[Mr. Invincible]

Head to head, I think Klitschko knocks Louis out late in the fight. This bias towards older fighters really needs to cease. Just because the older fighter may be more culturally important, publicly acclaimed, and higher ranked historically doesn't instantly equate into a victory over his new school opponet. You can't ignore the overwhelming physical advantages Klitschko has over Louis.

Great post, 100% accurate and even better said. That pretty much ends the thread for me. It's been fun crushing tools. I'm out of this one now. My job is done.

[JAB5239]

Great post, 100% accurate and even better said. That pretty much ends the thread for me. It's been fun crushing tools. I'm out of this one now. My job is done.

Crushing tools? Lol, you haven't done anything but be a cheerleader and get your ass handed to you by Joseph and others.

[Joeyzagz]

This bias towards older fighters really needs to cease. Just because the older fighter may be more culturally important, publicly acclaimed, and higher ranked historically doesn't instantly equate into a victory over his new school opponet. You can't ignore the overwhelming physical advantages Klitschko has over Louis.

This is not about ranking or cultural importance, everyone knows Joe wins in that department.

I vote Joe because he KOs fighters who have physical advantages over him. Thats actually what Joe Louis did best, better than any fighter in history.

I vote against VItali because he is a guy who has quit in the past to a former supermiddleweight. Vitali's weakness is Joe's strength.

[nomadman]

Context, context, context. And less Legendary Tales please.

Back in those days,the safety rules weren't what they are today. There was no going to the neutral corner during a knockdown. The opponent would just stand over you, two feet away, while the ref was counting. You get up, and you get beat up some more. Stoppages didn't come by as easy either. It was the equivalent of MMA's past years of rooster fighting, before they came up with some progressive rules to make it more of a sport.

There was no big scandals of the opposite trainer catching you with illegal wraps, or taking the padding out of your glove. None of this technical stuff that's BIG NEWS now.

So when someone got killed or sent into vegetative state by another fighter, it was probably due to combination of what I just described above, and not because Max Baer or Jack Dempsey were these Monster Killers of the past that today's Fighters couldn't hold a candle to. You can spin it that way, but it doesn't make it true.

Just FYI the netural corner rule was already in place by the time Louis became champ. But your other points still stand.

Baer was an above average puncher for his era whose status as a truly great puncher benefitted (though I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted it to) from the deaths of two men, one directly and one indirectly.

Deaths in boxing still regrettably occur, but they tend to happen more in third world countries where the lack of proper medical facilities and fighters forced to fight on an almost fortnightly basis to survive lead to repetitive brain trauma. In the time of the Campbell fight one could realistically say the situation was similar or even worse, given the smaller gloves. As for the circumstances of the fight itself we can only go on ring reports since no footage of the fight is available, as far as I know. In these reports it was stated that Campbell got sucker punched three times early on in the fight, and that later in the fifth round got trapped against the ropes and punched again after he'd been knocked unconscious, due to the ropes holding him up. He died shortly after. The later death of Ernie Schaaf was never conclusively linked to Baer.

When deaths happen in boxing today we shake our heads sadly and move on. We don't elevate their slayers to mythic punch proportions. But somehow these horrible little events in Baer's life have been exaggerated into turning him into some sort of monstrous puncher who killed men with one blow. That's an exaggeration of my own, but it's not too far off the truth of what some people on here say. And I'm not sure where the myth of Baer having one of the best chins of all time came from. You don't even really hear his chin mentioned unless he's in a fantasy fight with another big puncher. It was solid, but a lot of fighters have had solid chins who are no more than footnotes against the Chuvalos, Tuas and McCalls of the world.