Was Barrera as great as jrosales13 says he is?

[Brother Jay]

Who did Lopez beat then that makes him better than Barrera?

Lopez was fighting all the guys a minimum weight. The man had 51 wins(38 KOs), 0 losses and 1 draw which he avenged. How many fighters can say that they fought the best in 52 fights and retired undefeated????

Finito RULED where he fought. Barrera and Morales NEVER ruled where they fought because they spent years avoiding Marquez.

In fact, I'll go as far to say that had both Barrera and Morales stepped up earlier and fought Marquez they both would have lost and wouldn't be as highly regarded as they are by some.

By the time Barrera found the balls to face Marquez Marco had already been TKO'd by Pacquiao.

[gayfish]

dont start strugg...ur ruining a pretty good discussion. and btw u do kno floyd beat the same carlos hernandez first rite? so why include him?

what discussion? LOL. carlos hernandez gave prime floyd trouble. Morales beat him more convincingly imo.

[Kagami Taiga]

what discussion? LOL. carlos hernandez gave prime floyd trouble. Morales beat him more convincingly imo.

trouble? seriously...stop it. the fight was a wash. hernandez closed decently but he did not give floyd "trouble".

oh and i forgot, a one handed floyd at that.

[gayfish]

trouble? seriously...stop it. the fight was a wash. hernandez closed decently but he did not give floyd "trouble".

it was competitive against a prime floyd pre- f@g floyd. Morales beat him in his 3rd weight division. so gotta give props to el terrible for that.

[horge]

@TS
There's just too much to respond to, but I'll start with one thing that
I think lies at the root of your argument (which in large part is that
Barrera faced too many nobodies early on).

I think you're placing too much weight on "name scalps" taken, a POV
vulnerable to abuse, because whether an opponent is great or not is
entirely at the mercy of time: Margarito beating Martinez BITD has so
little bearing whether Margarito could defeat Martinez NOW. Pac's "W"
over Oscar is a good example of how boxrec data has to be taken in
proper temporal context (along with other asterisk-inducing factors,
like weight stipulations). God knows the best fighters aren't always the
ones given a title shot, and just because you've never heard of them
does not automatically mean they were tomato cans. Nor is it always
possible to find good opposition available within one's weight class.

Those who've actually seen MAB fight, and not merely scanned boxrec,
and have seen indisputably-great fighters as well, are qualified to hold
an opinion on whether MAB (or his opponents) are/were good, great
or a load of hype.

Fighting "nobodies" early on? MAB himself was a "nobody" too.
Look at almost any boxer's resume, and you'll find journeymen and
what you call "nobodies" in early fights. If a fighter can't get a shot
at a title, or worse, at a NAME opponent that he can make a NAME
off of, then he's representative of 99+% of boxers, and it happens
to very good boxers.

We could go over most of MAB's opposition one by one, but even
hindsight video is only one step better than skimming boxrec --it
omits the wider context of who was available to fight at the time,
and whether they were on the way up or down, and how good they
were against others (because maybe stylistically, MAB only made
them look bad).

Without this fundamental point made, there's no sense going over
MAB's record, opponent by opponent. A productive discussion on
'greatness' needs a common frame of reference, and it isn't going to
be boxrec.

[Brother Jay]

At the end of the day, it all comes down to who they beat, and how long did they stay on top.

Barrera's and Morales' best fights were against each other.

They did not dominate any divisions. The best usually do.

They did not face the very best out there. The best usually do.

They lost to B & C fighters and did not avenge the losses. Great boxers avenge losses or at least put on one hell of a rematch. Not the case with these two.

When you take all that into consideration, one would be hard pressed to call those two "great" without demonstrating a feat that either of them accomplished that would warrant that level of praise.

And when fans begin passing off their opinion based on nothing but their own opinion, it leads nowhere and means nothing.

Real fans watch fights and believe in the numbers and stats. There will occasionally be a robbery like Williams/Lara, but having watched the fight real fans know the real score.

No need to exaggerate because you like someone. Let what they've done in the ring stand on its own merit.

[americanbot]

At the end of the day, it all comes down to who they beat, and how long did they stay on top.

Barrera's and Morales' best fights were against each other.

They did not dominate any divisions. The best usually do.

They did not face the very best out there. The best usually do.

They lost to B & C fighters and did not avenge the losses. Great boxers avenge losses or at least put on one hell of a rematch. Not the case with these two.

When you take all that into consideration, one would be hard pressed to call those two "great" without demonstrating a feat that either of them accomplished that would warrant that level of praise.

And when fans begin passing off their opinion based on nothing but their own opinion, it leads nowhere and means nothing.

Real fans watch fights and believe in the numbers and stats. There will occasionally be a robbery like Williams/Lara, but having watched the fight real fans know the real score.

No need to exaggerate because you like someone. Let what they've done in the ring stand on its own merit.

i do agree with you that people are just DELUDING themselves if they think Barrera or Morales is greater then JMM...............

[John Barron]

i can see your point, brother jay. barrera, morales, and jmm (my favorite of the three) are all great fighters inside the ring but i never got that "legend" crap in regards to barrera and morales that certain fans and HBO like to put on as some sort of badge. people get carried away rather easily these days.

[gayfish]

i do agree with you that people are just DELUDING themselves if they think floyd is greater then MORALES..............

fixed it for you.

[LeG00N]

This thread inspired me to make a Ricardo Lopez sig....