Comments Thread For: Kelly Pavlik - The End Of An Error

[JakeNDaBox]

I respect your post and argument here. Will address each point separately, as best as I can.

I really don't understand all the hoopla about Pavlik pulling out of this fight. After all his opponent is an old scrub and Pavlik would be better off fighting Richie Cunningham instead of Darryl. At least there would be some name recognition. And because of that I do agree with the point in the article that Pavlik has not earned his shot at Bute, and fighting Cunningham was doing nothing to change that fact. With that said I believe the rest of the article has big enough holes in it to drive a truck through.

Pavlik didn't have to take the fight, and certainly had a lot longer than during fight week to decide he wasn't going to fight. His actions are 100% unprofessional.

I will start by saying that Mr. Donovan said that Pavlik's run at middleweight was one of the most disgraceful in history. I have to ask, why? I realize that his run doesn't compare to say that of Hagler or Monzon. But, who does and Mr. Donovan acts as if Pavlik did nothing with statements such as, "Three successful title defenses spray painted over 2-1/2 years." That statement is true but it is like a half truth. Simply because Pavlik fought six times within a 2-1/2 year period after winning the title from Taylor.

His first fight was a rematch at a catch weight with Taylor. And for all of you who don't remember Taylor was easily winning the first fight before Pavlik knocked him out. It was also Taylor's idea to fight at a higher weight. His next fight was against Lockett and I have to admit the fight was a joke. So, no more needs to be said about that. Than he moves up to fight one of the greatest fighters in history in Bhop. Why did he fight him? Maybe Arum thought Bhop was shot after the Calzaghe fight or maybe h thought Pavlik was really good enough to beat him. However, Pavlik is not and never will be the boxer Joe was and they should have known better. Anyway, I don't personally believe Pavlik has to hang his head low for losing to Bhop, even if he did get dominated. His next fight was with Rubio. A fighter who people seem to forget was ranked in Rings top ten at the time and is back there again a few years later. Espino was his next opponent. Now, Miguel had a pretty decent amateur career. But, it was still a joke fight just not as big as a joke as the Lockett fight. His last fight as champion was his lose to Martinez. And I am not one to make excuses. But I often wonder what would have happened if Pavlik wasn't cut in the fight? But, he was and he lost and even though Sergio was a late bloomer surely no disgrace in losing to him.

With all that said. I realize I may have taken the long route in trying to explain my point but this is it. Out of the six fights Pavlik had as champion only the Lockett and Espino fights were not legit. And in my opinion it may not have been the best. And he surely could have fought other fighters. But I also believe that his run was far from from disgraceful. Especially considering the fact that he was only champ for a little over two years. And just to show you how easily one can pick apart a fighters choice of opponents. Khan sure as hell should not have fought McCloskey or Salita but he did.

I chose my words carefully and stated his reign as a lineal (true) champion, not just among any given titlists. His lineal title reign consisted of: beating Taylor (A+), defending against Lockett (F-), Rubio (C), and Espino (F) before losing to Martinez (A).

Regardless of the non-title fights he took (and I made mention of the Hopkins fight), the fact remains that in a span of more than two years, those were the three against which he chose to defend the true middleweight crown. It equates to holding the title ransom.

I also have to ask if by using the word numerous do you actually mean twice? Because you make it sound as if Pavlik has made a career out of pulling out of fights when I only remember it happening twice before this week. And actually it happened twice within a span of a couple of months with the same fight and the same reason, the staph infection in Pavlik's hand.

I stand corrected. I thought it was three times, but confused one of the floated dates (11/21/2009) as a reschedule when in fact it was a conflict that resulted in a two-week push back.

And I mean this as no disrespect to Mr. Donovan but I assume that you are not a medical doctor, is that correct? Because you stated that the "alibi offered" from the Pavlik camp was about the staph infection. Did you mean that as if Pavlik was just using the hand as an excuse? Because from what I have read the information that Pavlik could not make a fist and therefore was not able to fight came from Dr. Peter J. Evans. Who just happened to be the director of the Cleveland Clinic Upper Extremity Center where Pavlik was being treated. And to me that sounds like a pretty sound alibi.

There is one other point that you made about the Williams-Pavlik non fights that I found to be interesting. You commented on the fact that Pavlik fought just a few weeks after he was supposed to fight Williams on December 5th. He did in fact fight Espino on December 19th so that is in fact true. However, there is one small detail that you somehow forgot to mention. And that is the date of the 19th was offered to the Williams camp and they turned it down.

Now I have to admit that as I am getting older and my memory is not the best. With that said. And please correct me if I am mistaken. The original date of the Williams-Pavlik fight was set for October 3rd. Than the fight was postponed until December 5th. And than Pavliks camp asked for a couple of extra weeks and the Williams camp turned it down. Therefore Williams fought Martinez on the 5th and Pavlik fought Espino on the 19th. And again correct me if I am mistaken. But withdrawing from a fight twice is still way short of doing it numerous times.

Williams' camp didn't turn down the 12/19 date so much as they gave up on believing that Pavlik would actually go through with the fight. They didn't even want to reschedule the Oct. date without medical reassurance that Pavlik would be cleared to fight. Once he reneged on that, they gave up and moved on. He hadn't fought since April and they didn't want to keep him waiting any longer

One other aspect I would like to reflect on and that is Pavlik's struggles with Lopez. I have to admit that I did not watch the fight live and and from what I read I thought that Pavlik really struggled with some second rate scrub. However, after watching the fight I found out that Lopez actually is a pretty good fighter. A fighter with fast hands that boxes and moves well and even has a little pop. With that said. Pavlik could have picked a real scrub after not fighting for a year but I am of the opinion that he picked a pretty solid, but unknown fighter, and was able to handle him and almost stop him in the 10th round.

Any opinion on Lopez and what he'll become is purely speculation so I won't expand much on that. But the belief by most was that he was an ideal candidate - glossy record against modest opposition and a style that was supposed to be tailor-made for even a ring-rust version of Pavlik. So no, Lopez wasn't a scrub, but was cherry picked and on the low end of the level of opposition that Showtime would approve for the PPV portion of the card.

I know I get a little long winded so I will begin to finish with my rants. I will start by saying that it is no secret I am and was a Pavlik fan. But I also believe that he should be fighting ranked opponents before he fights for a championship in the SMW division. However, that is an all around problem with boxing and it really has little to do with Pavlik as I believe Mr. Donovan would suggest.

In closing I would like to say that I believe that Mr Donovan truly does not like Pavlik and he has let his dislike cloud his objectivity. With that said. I am a realist and believe that Pavlik is, and always was a very limited fighter who made the best of his abilities and won one of the most prized belts in boxing. There are also no doubts that Pavlik has some serious issues going on in his life and I wish him the best in what ever decisions he happens to make. With that said there is one issue I don't believe Pavlik has or ever had. And that is I don't believe for a second that Pavlik was ever afraid of Paul Williams and if hey had fought he would have mopped the floor with "the Punisher."

I'm actually a Pavlik fan, and probably let down more than anything else. Has nothing to do with disliking him, not even close to being true (though I acknowledge it's a suggestion on your part and not an accusation).

I disagree that he's a limited fighter. He had true middleweight power and was a proven commodity against legit competition even before fighting for the MW title. The life he led outside the ring got in the way of his living up to his true abilities, IMO. Not denying his limitations and even a truly clean and sober version falls way short against guys on the elite level. But I do believe that he underachieved as a champion, and his attitude and lack of respect towards his fans is an even greater letdown.

[kingfaze19]

kelly's career ended when he signed on to fight Hopkins , he lost his soul , confidence and self esteem after 12 rounds of humiliation. .. then came the alcohol .. this guy needs to go to church and retire from boxing, nobody wants him

[Ravens Fan]

I respect your post and argument here. Will address each point separately, as best as I can.


Pavlik didn't have to take the fight, and certainly had a lot longer than during fight week to decide he wasn't going to fight. His actions are 100% unprofessional.


I chose my words carefully and stated his reign as a lineal (true) champion, not just among any given titlists. His lineal title reign consisted of: beating Taylor (A+), defending against Lockett (F-), Rubio (C), and Espino (F) before losing to Martinez (A).

Regardless of the non-title fights he took (and I made mention of the Hopkins fight), the fact remains that in a span of more than two years, those were the three against which he chose to defend the true middleweight crown. It equates to holding the title ransom.


I stand corrected. I thought it was three times, but confused one of the floated dates (11/21/2009) as a reschedule when in fact it was a conflict that resulted in a two-week push back.


Williams' camp didn't turn down the 12/19 date so much as they gave up on believing that Pavlik would actually go through with the fight. They didn't even want to reschedule the Oct. date without medical reassurance that Pavlik would be cleared to fight. Once he reneged on that, they gave up and moved on. He hadn't fought since April and they didn't want to keep him waiting any longer


Any opinion on Lopez and what he'll become is purely speculation so I won't expand much on that. But the belief by most was that he was an ideal candidate - glossy record against modest opposition and a style that was supposed to be tailor-made for even a ring-rust version of Pavlik. So no, Lopez wasn't a scrub, but was cherry picked and on the low end of the level of opposition that Showtime would approve for the PPV portion of the card.


I'm actually a Pavlik fan, and probably let down more than anything else. Has nothing to do with disliking him, not even close to being true (though I acknowledge it's a suggestion on your part and not an accusation).

I disagree that he's a limited fighter. He had true middleweight power and was a proven commodity against legit competition even before fighting for the MW title. The life he led outside the ring got in the way of his living up to his true abilities, IMO. Not denying his limitations and even a truly clean and sober version falls way short against guys on the elite level. But I do believe that he underachieved as a champion, and his attitude and lack of respect towards his fans is an even greater letdown.

Let me say first that I wish I knew how to break it up and respond to each question the way you did. But I don't so I have to just do what I know how to.

You are right Pavlik did not have to take the fight. And yes it was unprofessional but if what he says is true? About him not knowing what he was getting paid until this week, would that not make a huge difference? And if it is true, because I realize it is only one side of the story. It sounds as if you can call everyone that was involved unprofessional. And yet Pavlik and Cunningham were the only ones that would have been in harms way. And because of that I have no problem siding with the fighters. I will also say that in a strange way Pavlik's honesty is somewhat refreshing. At least he did not lie about some none existing injury and told the truth as he sees it. With that said. I will admit I was disappointed just because I am a fan and I was looking forward to watching the fight.

As far as Pavlik's reign as lineal champ you have a sound argument. However, if I really was going to get on him it would have been for taking two non title fights. Because that took up so much time that could have been used to fight legit middleweights. And if Taylor was legit at 160 he surely was legit at 164, or what ever weight that they had fought at. I also look at Rubio as a legit contender and would personally rate him at least a little higher than a C. But, to each his own.

And as far as Williams turning down the December 19th date. I really don't blame his camp. However, the reason I even mentioned it was because you made it sound as if Pavlik was waiting until he was sure Williams had a fight on the 5th and than wiped the sweat of his forehead and set a fight with Espino on the 19th. And if that is what happened than Pavlik would have deserved all the heat for ducking Williams. However, that is not what happened and I really believe that Pavlik wanted to fight Williams and his camp did ask the Williams camp to push it back to the 19th. And I have no problem believing that Pavlik had legit problems with his hand. And because of his problems he lost another legit name on his resume.

As far as what Lopez will become I really don't care. I only know what he was the night he fought Pavlik. And what I witnessed was that Lopez was a pretty good fighter. He moved well he boxed well and had fast hands and was not even remotely afraid to be on the big stage for the first time in his career. And what he does for the rest of his career is irrelevant to this conversation and I simply believe that Pavlik's camp could have picked a much easier opponent, like say a Brian Vera type, and no one really would have complained.

And maybe I should not have said very limited but Pavlik is a limited fighter non the less. And Hopkins and Martinez showed us just how limited he is. But I will say again I believe he did very well with the gifts that God gave him and I again wish him luck in what ever he decides to do in life. And I will like to say in closing it sure was a pleasure talking with you. Because it sure beats being cussed at and being called a moron by some of the loud mouths on this forum. Have a good one!!

[fastblack]

Pavlik is a deeply disturbed mentally disturbed person with alcoholism issues and a tattoo problem coupled with the fact that he is not popular even in his own home town. Take away the beatings of a half brain dead jermain Taylor pavlik's career isn't much he hasn't really beaten anyone good and is just an average fighter with a below average trainer one of the worst trainers in boxing history in Jack Loew. Mental stability issues are looming for this offbalanced disturbed kid. Amy Winehouse had nothing on this mess of a person. Nice family support system in the trailer park for the Pav.

[TaurusJ27]

It makes Pavlik look bad when he cancels a fight being held in his hometown like that.

[rocco1252]

Pavlik is a deeply disturbed mentally disturbed person with alcoholism issues and a tattoo problem coupled with the fact that he is not popular even in his own home town. Take away the beatings of a half brain dead jermain Taylor pavlik's career isn't much he hasn't really beaten anyone good and is just an average fighter with a below average trainer one of the worst trainers in boxing history in Jack Loew. Mental stability issues are looming for this offbalanced disturbed kid. Amy Winehouse had nothing on this mess of a person. Nice family support system in the trailer park for the Pav.

you have not one good point to make all you do is ramble on in numerous different post to raise your count. I think you made your dislike of Pavlik obvious in the first post.

[JakeNDaBox]

My pleasure and I agree, a lot of knuckleheads on here, sometimes makes it tough to engage in compelling convo. But plenty of good-to-great posters here as well, just have to sift through the nonsense.

The only thing I will say is that Pavlik has already been called on his BS. He keeps claiming that Kessler was offered $3.5 million for the Bute fight. There's no way in hell Showtime offered that much - Bute's contract is 3 fights $6 million. no way in hell they're going to offer Kessler twice as much as Bute for the fight, And certainly no way in hell that Kessler would've turned down that payday. Had it been true, believe me we'd be writing about it.

Pretty sure that $3.5 million is the total available pot for a Bute-Pavlik fight and that it's a 60/40 split for Bute. Of the 40%, Pavlik splits that 80/20 with Top Rank, which is standard for any fighter/promoter agreement. That's how they came to the $1.35 million cut for him, while they get $270k or so.

His problem is that he has no sense of his own worth these days. He hasn't done **** in years, and for this fight in his hometown had only sold 1,000 or so tickets. His fan base has dwindled with each passing fight, yet he remains stuck in 2007.

HBO overpaid for his 2008 defense against Gary Lockett. Top Rank and Golden Boy took a bath on the Hopkins-Pavlik PPV. Top Rank and DiBella took a bath on the Pavlik-Taylor II PPV.

Dude is a "name" but by no means any longer a draw. That and the fact that the Taylor rematch win was his last major achievement (more than three years ago) and he's all out of valid excuses for attempting to claim that he's being underpaid.

All he can do is compare to what he's been paid in the past, and everyone in the media has ripped on guys like Andre Berto, Paul Williams, Winky Wright, Alfredo Angulo, etc. for the exact same thing.

For the quoting paragraphs, thing, all you do is begin each paragraph with brackets [] surrounding the word quote, and then end it with brackets surrounding /quote. I'd do it exactly as it should be, but would wind up quoting this paragraph. But hopefully that makes sense.

Pleasure chatting witcha!

Let me say first that I wish I knew how to break it up and respond to each question the way you did. But I don't so I have to just do what I know how to.

You are right Pavlik did not have to take the fight. And yes it was unprofessional but if what he says is true? About him not knowing what he was getting paid until this week, would that not make a huge difference? And if it is true, because I realize it is only one side of the story. It sounds as if you can call everyone that was involved unprofessional. And yet Pavlik and Cunningham were the only ones that would have been in harms way. And because of that I have no problem siding with the fighters. I will also say that in a strange way Pavlik's honesty is somewhat refreshing. At least he did not lie about some none existing injury and told the truth as he sees it. With that said. I will admit I was disappointed just because I am a fan and I was looking forward to watching the fight.

As far as Pavlik's reign as lineal champ you have a sound argument. However, if I really was going to get on him it would have been for taking two non title fights. Because that took up so much time that could have been used to fight legit middleweights. And if Taylor was legit at 160 he surely was legit at 164, or what ever weight that they had fought at. I also look at Rubio as a legit contender and would personally rate him at least a little higher than a C. But, to each his own.

And as far as Williams turning down the December 19th date. I really don't blame his camp. However, the reason I even mentioned it was because you made it sound as if Pavlik was waiting until he was sure Williams had a fight on the 5th and than wiped the sweat of his forehead and set a fight with Espino on the 19th. And if that is what happened than Pavlik would have deserved all the heat for ducking Williams. However, that is not what happened and I really believe that Pavlik wanted to fight Williams and his camp did ask the Williams camp to push it back to the 19th. And I have no problem believing that Pavlik had legit problems with his hand. And because of his problems he lost another legit name on his resume.

As far as what Lopez will become I really don't care. I only know what he was the night he fought Pavlik. And what I witnessed was that Lopez was a pretty good fighter. He moved well he boxed well and had fast hands and was not even remotely afraid to be on the big stage for the first time in his career. And what he does for the rest of his career is irrelevant to this conversation and I simply believe that Pavlik's camp could have picked a much easier opponent, like say a Brian Vera type, and no one really would have complained.

And maybe I should not have said very limited but Pavlik is a limited fighter non the less. And Hopkins and Martinez showed us just how limited he is. But I will say again I believe he did very well with the gifts that God gave him and I again wish him luck in what ever he decides to do in life. And I will like to say in closing it sure was a pleasure talking with you. Because it sure beats being cussed at and being called a moron by some of the loud mouths on this forum. Have a good one!!

[jrosales13]

Once again, Jake proves why he's arguably the best writer/journalist in the game right now. It's between him and his partner in crime Cliff, tell Crold to get a twitter.

It's a damn good piece, great read like always.

[StrangerInTown]

The Racket Squad: Whenever Kindness Fails

Only a drunk who has yet to get the big, sober picture, would turn down a cool million after being exposed as a proven risk within his industry.
The Bute fight was a damn gift.
Drunks who don't show up for work don't get many of those.

Had he put on a good show, he would have been closer to evolving into the promising big ticket who once beat Taylor.
Instead, he called in sick once again.
But the Kelly of 2011 is not the same valient man who got up after being beaten senseless and destroyed Jermaine.
This Pavlik is the textbook edition of the arrogance of alcoholism on full display.

When each kindness fails, it's time to cut the alcoholic without remorse loose.
He will break your heart every time.

[tennesseeboy]

Do you know him personally and live with him? if not, i wouldnt be so quick to talk about the man. You have no idea what he is and has gone through in his life. Look in the mirror and judge yourself before you judge somebody.