When assesing a fighters resume loses count to, DUH

[ablindwatchmakr]

I think that losses count, but not as much when boxers like Roy Jones are still fighting. Did his loss to Tarver count? Absolutely. Does his recent loss count? No. How could it?

Pac's losses to Morales (maybe Marquez) definitely count; however, his losses to guys he fought when he was a teenager are not nearly as important: he wasn't even a fully developed human being at the time.

I agree that being undefeated over a long career is overlooked, but losses are not losses.

[daggum]

it also depends on what kind of loss it is. if you get ktfo in 3 rounds then that doesn't really show you can compete with the elite fighters of your time. a fighter can lose controversial decisions like marquez did to norwood, john, pac-2 or hopkins did to taylor 1-2, calzaghe. most of those decisions easily could have and probably should have gone the other way and don't make a guy look any worse.

look at a guy like josh clottey. he lost to baldomir after dominating the fight and was unfairly(imo) dq'd. he lost a close fight to margarito(i scored it a draw last time i watchined), he lost a razor close decision to cotto(i scored it for clottey 114-113 last time i watched it) if the judging had been a little different he would have a beastly record when he faced pac but instead he had a couple losses and everyone looked at him like he was a giant tomato can. i guess it all comes down to how much do you trust the official judges? me, not much.

[IronDanHamza]

Loss's don't always matter, no.

Especially not early in a career like Pac's loss's, and went on to be as great as he is.

Alexis Arguello
Jack Britton
Pipino Cuevas
Henry Armstrong
Manuel Ortiz
Benny Leonard
Benny Lynch
Joe Brown
Billy Conn
Bernard Hopkins
Pone Kingpetch
Juan Manuel Marquez

All lost their very first fight. And it literally contributes nothing to their legacy.

[IronDanHamza]

it also depends on what kind of loss it is. if you get ktfo in 3 rounds then that doesn't really show you can compete with the elite fighters of your time. a fighter can lose controversial decisions like marquez did to norwood, john, pac-2 or hopkins did to taylor 1-2, calzaghe. most of those decisions easily could have and probably should have gone the other way and don't make a guy look any worse.

look at a guy like josh clottey. he lost to baldomir after dominating the fight and was unfairly(imo) dq'd. he lost a close fight to margarito(i scored it a draw last time i watchined), he lost a razor close decision to cotto(i scored it for clottey 114-113 last time i watched it) if the judging had been a little different he would have a beastly record when he faced pac but instead he had a couple losses and everyone looked at him like he was a giant tomato can. i guess it all comes down to how much do you trust the official judges? me, not much.

What about Alexis Arguello who was stopped in the first round of his first fight?

Or getting stopped by Jorge Reyes in 6 rounds.

Then going on to be a 3 weight World Champion.

[uoykcuf]

Wasn't Pacquiao like 17 when he lost? I don't even care how many losses someone has on their resume unless its a ridculous alot. Fighters like Salido and Glen johnson are beasts.

[The_Golden_Goy]

I dont think losses hurt a legacy too much, because after all its what you achieved that counts. Battling back against the odds or from a loss are two things boxing is all about, and if fighters go on the achieve more then why should we focus on losses?

You cant mention Wlads name with hearing about Sanders, Purrity and Brewster, but I think he has achieved enough to be recognised in spite of his losses.

The record as a whole counts yes definetly, I agree with you there. But it shouldnt hurt a legacy as much as you make out. Everybody has lost, everybody has been beat. Sugar Ray Robinsons losses dont hurt him, neither does Ali's, or the fact Duran quit, or Hagler lost his defining fight or Hearns lost the most famous blow out of all time, or Hopkins lost his first fight.

If you achieve, THAT is what you are remembered for.

[daggum]

What about Alexis Arguello who was stopped in the first round of his first fight?

Or getting stopped by Jorge Reyes in 6 rounds.

Then going on to be a 3 weight World Champion.

a lot of people get stopped early in their careers(castillo 4 times, pac twice, etc...) i was talking about on when you reach the elite level and if you get stopped on the elite level then you have to weigh that in with the rest of their resume and see what you get. arguello has such a long and great resume that getting stopped by pryor doesn't take away too much but if a guy like calzaghe got stopped by kessler or hopkins then yeah he would have looked pretty bad.

[$tate of Mind]

When I look at a fighters resume, I take everything into account wins, loses, and draws they all matter. Does a loss take away from a fighters greatness, not necessarily imo but that doesn't mean that they didn't occur. Assessing everything within a fighters resume is the logical thing to do imo. To each his own.

[IronDanHamza]

a lot of people get stopped early in their careers(castillo 4 times, pac twice, etc...) i was talking about on when you reach the elite level and if you get stopped on the elite level then you have to weigh that in with the rest of their resume and see what you get. arguello has such a long and great resume that getting stopped by pryor doesn't take away too much but if a guy like calzaghe got stopped by kessler or hopkins then yeah he would have looked pretty bad.

In that case, I agree.

[tangalog2200]

Should we ignore the fact that Pacquiao was KTFO by bums in Torrecampo and Sinsurat because those defeats came early in his career when he wasn't a great fighter? Should we ignore Wlad's loses to Sanders, Brewster, and Purity because he wasn't the great champion that he was today back then? A resume is not just about wins, loses and draws count too and they should be treated as such.

maybe you're right.....but...

if all fights of a boxer have to be included in his resume, then we have:

a boxer's win loss and draws records in his amateur days..and..

a boxer's win loss and draws records in his professional days....

then we have to rewrite the win loss and draws records of most boxers