Myth Buster Series Pt 1: Miguel Cotto one of The GREAT fighters Floyd avoided?!?!?!

[The Big Dunn]

he took the road that paid more and had less risk once he reached the top. It's easy to say Arum didn't want to put anymore money into Floyd's pocket considering the fact.

It's not easy dude its the plain truth. The bottom line is the 4 boxers you cited all are employed by floyd's former employer. Of the best WW's from 07-09 , floyd fought all of them except those who were employed by top rank.

The one he fought last, Shane Mosley spent 03-07 ducking floyd every time floyd called him out. Shane wouldn't fight floyd when he was the man yet begged floyd for a fight when floyd was on top.

So if the non top rank guy refuses to fight you and the 4 top rank guys are not allowed to fight you, who was floyd supposed to fight?

[LaMigra]

the best of the best?..he fought Shane when Shane had no title came down in weight from 154lbs...that was a month before Mayweather fought Hatton and retired....

then Cotto fights Alfonso Gomez...(hes a great WW?)
then hes busted up and quits vs Margarito ( a guy who was just hyped by bob arum and was caught cheating)

then he fights Michael Jennings?
then he struggles vs Clottey? Who has Clottey ever beat @WW that mattered?
Then he loses to Pac, who wasnt even a WW until that fight

so lets recap... Mosley dropping down in weight from 154, Alfonso Gomez, Margarito, Michael Jennings, Clottey & Pac?


one thing about all those guys is they all lost their big fights except for Manny.....Margaritos failed vs EVERY Major opponent except for Cotto....lol...

Hotbed of boxing my ass...that was just Bob Arum Hype..isnt it a coincidence that all these guys are Top Rank fighters...lol

So... Floyd fighting little Marquez and jerking hi by coming in as a fcking MIDDLEWEIGHT is legit???

You are the dumbest poster of the week. You have shown a tendency towards hyping Floyd's fights against utter bums and trying to conveniently downplay Cotto's accomplishments. You are a sad little man.

That sucker-punch Floyd landed on Gatti while Gatti was complaining to the referee was typical of the impulse-driven hoodrat flood.

Kids: Just say no to Kool Aid and ketchup/wonderbread lunch.

[tangalog2200]

He fought in what was considered the hot bed on Boxing between 2007-2009 with guys like Margarito, Clottey, Cotto, Mosley, and Pacquiao all fighting one another, except guess who.

All the fighters you mentioned are top rank fighters. The president of top rank refuses to do business with floyd mayweather because floyd is no longer employed by top rank. The divison was not a hot bed just because these four were promoted by Bob.

if floyd did indeed not call out cotto...

still, floyd did duck cotto........up to now

[Brother Jay]

You must be new to the sport... You have no clue of what it is you speak.

2005-09-24 : Miguel Angel Cotto 140 lbs beat Ricardo Torres 140 lbs by KO at 1:52 in round 7 of 12

Location: Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA
Referee: David Fields
Judge: Chuck Giampa 57-53
Judge: Julie Lederman 56-53
Judge: Denny Nelson 57-53
World Boxing Organization Light Welterweight Title (Cotto's 4th defense)
Time: 1:52

Weights: 140 lbs (each)

Promoter: Duva Boxing

Doctors: Marc Shaber, Jordan Gainson, Domenic Coletta

Comments

Torres down in rounds one, four, six, and seven.

Cotto down in round two (the first time he had been knocked down in his career).

Aside from the knockdown, Cotto was rocked in the first, fifth, sixth, and seventh rounds.

Harold Lederman of HBO scored the fifth round 10-8 for Torres. He scored five of the six finished rounds as 10-8.

You and your fellow *******ed peasants are so weak. Why come with a weak response like that when you KNOW Brother Jay is coming with a boot designed so that one size fits all assses?

I noticed that you avoided all the facts that I shut you up with. Cash Cow and Big Dunn have been doing spinning wheel kicks to that ass!

No matter how much you Cotto groupies try to hype him up, the man has ONLY ONE notable win!!!

I don't care who Cotto has fought. Who has he beaten??? Joshua Clottey has fought Margarito, Cotto and Pacquiao. He lost to all of them(Well not really to Cotto if you saw the fight) but the fact is that saying that Clottey fought them does NOT make him a better fighter. It simply means he did what he had to do to make his Pappy Arum more money by fighting his stablemates.

All Top Rank fighters WW boxers are garbage. When you take a serious look at not only what they've done but HOW THEY DID IT you begin to see the dishonest hand of Bob Arum in all their accomplishments.

I digress. Back to Cotto. None of you so called Cotto fans can talk about his accomplishments because he has none! Keeping in line with his stablemate Pacquiao, all but one of the belts that Cotto has competed for in his career were vacant belts.

What exactly does that mean?

Well for one, it means that he didn't fight a champion for those paper titles. The fans will not see a man as a champion unless he beats a champion for that distinction. Its always been that way and will always be that way regardless of how loud *******s protest.

Cotto competed for:

vacant WBC International light welterweight title

vacant WBO light welterweight title

vacant WBA World welterweight title

vacant WBO welterweight title

And for you more idiotic peasants that seek to make the case that winning a vacant belt and parading it around like you've dethroned the king of the hill to become the king of the hill is legitimate ... YOU FAILED.

I've been more critical of Bernard Hopkins than ANYONE. Hopkins competed for a vacant belt in 1993 and lost. Then he competed for it again in 1994 and got a draw. In the rematch, Hopkins FINALLY got the vacant belt. Then he defended it for 6 years, avoiding EVERY SINGLE CHAMPION in his division during that time.

I condemned Hopkins for not seeking greatness and being content to hide at MW for years fighting nobodies. I am condemning Cotto for seeking mediocrity in every division he's competed in other than jrMW. Cotto could have fought the best. He CHOSE not! I wish the guy well, but he let Arum slip and slime him into notoriety rather than earn it by winning over top competition.

Don't take my word for a damned thing. Go look it up, peasants, but prepare to have your little peasant hearts broken.

And now with Steward as his trainer, prepare for Cotto to get massacred by any real jrMW threat like Martinez. Steward IMO is HIGHLY overrated when not working with men who are unusually-tall for their division. Cotto is not tall for a jrMW. That spells doom for him as Steward will give instructions that will lead to Cotto's demise. Then once he loses, Steward will claim that Cotto wasn't listening to him like he did with Prince Hamed, Kermit Cintron, Jermain Taylor and Vivian Harris.

Cotto would be better served by finding a different trainer and improving his defense. Not necessarily becoming a defensive fighter, but one that doesn't take as many unnecessary beatings to give as good as he takes. He needs to learn how to hit without being hit. He's Puerto Rican, not Mexican.

[JmH Reborn]

Why do Floyd fans continue the hypocrisy and denigrate other fighter's accomplishments.

Floyd may very well be the most overrated Welterweight in a decade or two. There is a reason he hasn't had any challenges at the weight class. At the end of the day, he avoided ALL top WW fighters while in the division, opting for retirement. Its undeniable. So the top fighters belonged to Arum, that's to be expected, he's the best promoter in the game. He gets to use some fake animosity against Arum to avoid fights. Lets not forget that he managed to make Floyd a so called ATG while he was under him. Now Floyd leaves Top Rank and is nothing but a caricature of his former self. It took him 7 years to fight a legit fight in the weight class, against Ortiz no less.

The best fighters in the division in the past 7 years were under Arum, he didn't fight them. End of story. Trying to belittle their accomplishments doesn't change the fact.

He chose Baldomir over Margarito because it was the safe option, since Baldomir never was, and never will have been in Margs class.

He chose retirement over Cotto because it was the safe option.

He chose asking for OST over Pac because its the safe option.

The only myth that needs to perhaps be busted is the notion that Floyd is a great WW. An academic dissertation still would not be able to prove the fact.

[tangalog2200]

Why do Floyd fans continue the hypocrisy and denigrate other fighter's accomplishments.

Floyd may very well be the most overrated Welterweight in a decade or two. There is a reason he hasn't had any challenges at the weight class. At the end of the day, he avoided ALL top WW fighters while in the division, opting for retirement. Its undeniable. So the top fighters belonged to Arum, that's to be expected, he's the best promoter in the game. He gets to use some fake animosity against Arum to avoid fights. Lets not forget that he managed to make Floyd a so called ATG while he was under him. Now Floyd leaves Top Rank and is nothing but a caricature of his former self. It took him 7 years to fight a legit fight in the weight class, against Ortiz no less.

The best fighters in the division in the past 7 years were under Arum, he didn't fight them. End of story. Trying to belittle their accomplishments doesn't change the fact.

He chose Baldomir over Margarito because it was the safe option, since Baldomir never was, and never will have been in Margs class.

He chose retirement over Cotto because it was the safe option.

He chose asking for OST over Pac because its the safe option.

The only myth that needs to perhaps be busted is the notion that Floyd is a great WW. An academic dissertation still would not be able to prove the fact.

very clear and objective post.....

floyd may be a great fighter, but sadly, he puts all the questions to his greatness himself..and he continues to do so...

[Brother Jay]

Time to take you to school, peasant

Why do Floyd fans continue the hypocrisy and denigrate other fighter's accomplishments.

If by denigrate you mean post excerpts from Boxrec, then I guess I'm guilty, peasant.

Floyd may very well be the most overrated Welterweight in a decade or two. There is a reason he hasn't had any challenges at the weight class. At the end of the day, he avoided ALL top WW fighters while in the division, opting for retirement. Its undeniable.

LOL ... Floyd has fought the #1 WW each time he was active in the WW division. The first being Carlos Baldomir, who rose to the top after beating Judah. Floyd also fought Judah to settle their feud. Margarito, Cotto and Pacquiao WERE NOT FACTORS BACK THEN. In case you are fcuked up in the head and you forget that I typed that by the time you decide to respond, make like the movie "50 First Dates" and create a video and watch it every day so that you can first argue, then cry, then shut the fcuk up.

Then Floyd again became the #1 WW when he fought and dominated Shane Mosley, who became the #1 WW by knocking Margarito out of his gauchos. At the point when Floyd dominated Mosley, Cotto had been TKO'd twice, Margarito had been beaten, TKO'd and banned, and Pacquiao was still ducking USADA like his life depended on it while still on his quest for more vacant titles.

No one has ever claimed that Floyd Mayweather jr was being considered among the greatest WWs of all time because his division wasn't full of talent. You denied it when no one had claimed it to make it seem like you were making a point or dispelling some rumor. You're an asss.

So the top fighters belonged to Arum, that's to be expected, he's the best promoter in the game. He gets to use some fake animosity against Arum to avoid fights. Lets not forget that he managed to make Floyd a so called ATG while he was under him.

Do you remember that DLH was also under Arum? He left as well because he realized that Arum was taking most of the money earned from his talent! DLH left and made Golden Boy Promotions. Floyd Mayweather did the same and made Mayweather Promotions. What you are saying is idiotic when you actually think about it. DLH and Mayweather are somehow remiss for not letting Arum slave them? Go suck a d!ck, dude.

Now Floyd leaves Top Rank and is nothing but a caricature of his former self. It took him 7 years to fight a legit fight in the weight class, against Ortiz no less.

Shane Mosley, coming off a knockout win over Margarito, was not a legit fight? You're a fcuking idiot peasant. Shane was coming off his biggest win since DLH, and you say it wasn't a legit fight against Floyd. I'm debating a fcuking fool. Floyd isn't Pacquiao who waits until his opponents are coming off losses.

Ortiz is the WBC WW champion of the world. That is a real opponent. Who is Margarito fighting next? Who is Cotto fighting next? Each other? LOL! Who is Pacquiao fighting next? Marquez? Go sit the fcuk down and look at the corner.

The best fighters in the division in the past 7 years were under Arum, he didn't fight them. End of story. Trying to belittle their accomplishments doesn't change the fact.

EVERY SINGLE ARUM WW CANNOT HOLD ON FOR MORE THAN 12 MONTHS BEFORE THEY HAVE THEIR ASSS HANDED TO THEM! This is a fact. Pacquiao is not a WW. He is a catchweight contender. Margarito, Cotto and Clottey .. all Top Rank boxers .. have all been exposed within a 12 month period. You cannot duck a boxer who is not on top for more than 12 months. You cannot duck a boxer who is no longer a top contender after a 12 month period.

What you and other delusional peasants are attempting to make a case for is Mayweather not IMMEDIATELY running to fight Margarito and Cotto RIGHT AFTER they finally won a match over a significant name. Mayweather is NOT Mosley. He doesn't have to climb in the ring during their post-fight interviews to get a match. They want what Mayweather has, not the other way around, peasant.

Need a timeline?

July 2007 - Margarito is defeated by Paul Williams

November 2007 - Cotto defeats Mosley

December 2007 - Mayweather TKO's Hatton and takes a hiatus

July 2008 - Margarito TKO's Cotto - Margarito is now #1 because with Mayweather gone, Cotto moved up from #2 to #1.

January 2009 - Mosley TKO's Margarito and Margarito is banned - Mosley is now #1WW

September 2009 - Mayweather decisions Marquez

November 2009 - Pacquiao TKO's Cotto for vacant belt

May 2010 - Mayweather dominates Mosley - Mayweather is now #1 WW

June 2010 - Cotto TKO's Yuri Foreman

November 2010 - Pacquiao decisions the still-banned Margarito for vacant belt

May 2011 - Pacquiao decisions Mosley

What's next?

Pacquiao is fighting Marquez. Mayweather is fighting Victor Ortiz for the WBC WW world championship.

That timeline shows just how full of **** you are when you say that someone was ducking. None of them were ducking. They were too busy getting KO'd and dominated to be ducked! To be ducked you have to keep winning and remain on top to say "When will I get my chance. I keep winning but you won't fight me". NONE OF THOSE BUMS WERE EVER IN THAT POSITION! Only Pacquiao has been able to remain on top and he did that by stipulating catchweights, rehydration clauses and targeting fighters ONLY after they lost so that they would be in a position of weakness as the negotiation table.

THAT'S how the game is played, peasant.

He chose Baldomir over Margarito because it was the safe option, since Baldomir never was, and never will have been in Margs class.

You mean the Margarito who lost to Daniel Santos? Or the Margarito whose claim to fame was defending a vacant WBO belt he got from Antonio Diaz? Again, you are a fcuking joke. If you ever told the truth you'd probably have a seizure and die.

He chose retirement over Cotto because it was the safe option.

Cotto would have to have been a real challenge for retirement to have been the "safe option". Cotto was proven to be a guy who had gotten a brake with his win over Mosley. In his next big fight he got blasted. In his next big fight after that he got blasted again. The guy had to leave the division because he knew he was outmanned.

He chose asking for OST over Pac because its the safe option.

If Pac was the man you think he is and AGREED TO EVERYTHING, the fight would already be done. You, like so many peasants like yourself, subscribe to Arum's conjecture rather than the facts. NOTHING you say will change the fact that Pacquiao said that he agreed to EVERYTHING. Yet all the boxing world has is more excuses as to why Pacquiao is procrastinating. Now its USADA. Next it will be the court case being used as an excuse.

The only myth that needs to perhaps be busted is the notion that Floyd is a great WW. An academic dissertation still would not be able to prove the fact.

Again, no one is hailing Floyd as one of the best WW of all time. He's the best WW since Shane Mosley. Shane Mosley was a better WW than DLH. With this upcoming Ortiz fight Mayweather will trump those two and Trinidad.

If Margarito, Cotto or Clottey were worth their weight in horse **** at WW, what would a win over them now hold? Absolutely nothing. And the funny thing is that they were all worthless BEFORE Pacquiao beat them!!! LMAOOOOOOOOO Fcuking overhyped Top Rank garbage. The only real use that Margarito, Cotto and Clottey ever had was to bolster up Manny Pacquiao's questionable WW & jrMW credentials. That's the facts, Jack.

Cotto served as a sacrificial lamb to Pacquiao so Manny could earn a vacant WW paper title. Margarito served as a sacrificial lamb to Pacquiao so Manny could earn a vacant jrMW paper title. Clottey served to quiet critics that said Manny wouldn't fight slick Black fighters. Clottey ain't slick, but he sure is Black!

Even now, Mayweather is looking for quality over sheer quantity. After Ortiz, who knows? *******s and other idiots will keep barking challenges until Floyd gets too old or goes up too high and loses. Then they will attack his legacy like they did with Roy Jones jr.

Roger was right. You fcuking peasants don't know boxing. You haven't been watching before 2000. You work off of a limited understanding of the dynamics of the boxing game and an even more limited understanding of boxing itself.

Cotto won only one meaningful fight at WW. Then he was relegated to obscurity.
Same for Margarito. Same for Clottey. You peasants just can't understand that the point in which you face a fighter is just as important as the fighter himself. That dynamic is totally beyond all of you peasants.

*******s and idiots alike seem to think that no matter the point you face a fighter, it doesn't matter. The win is on the resume. That's bull****. Pacquiao might as well call out Sugar Ray Leonard and beat him. Then he can say that he's beat an all time great. Wlad Klitschko might as well call out Muhammad Ali and beat him to be called the greatest.

When a man is winning and on top, he is worth something. When that same man is coming off a loss, is ranked 5th or below and has struggled since the loss, a win over him doesn't hold the same greatness as it once did. Get that through your fcuking heads, peasants.

Make sure you factor in that Cotto asked to quit against Pacquiao. That's the heart of a prime champion, huh?

Peasants and their dreams. You gotta pity them.

[Cash Cow]

If by denigrate you mean post excerpts from Boxrec, then I guess I'm guilty, peasant.



LOL ... Floyd has fought the #1 WW each time he was active in the WW division. The first being Carlos Baldomir, who rose to the top after beating Judah. Floyd also fought Judah to settle their feud. Margarito, Cotto and Pacquiao WERE NOT FACTORS BACK THEN. In case you are fcuked up in the head and you forget that I typed that by the time you decide to respond, make like the movie "50 First Dates" and create a video and watch it every day so that you can first argue, then cry, then shut the fcuk up.

Then Floyd again became the #1 WW when he fought and dominated Shane Mosley, who became the #1 WW by knocking Margarito out of his gauchos. At the point when Floyd dominated Mosley, Cotto had been TKO'd twice, Margarito had been beaten, TKO'd and banned, and Pacquiao was still ducking USADA like his life depended on it while still on his quest for more vacant titles.

No one has ever claimed that Floyd Mayweather jr was being considered among the greatest WWs of all time because his division wasn't full of talent. You denied it when no one had claimed it to make it seem like you were making a point or dispelling some rumor. You're an asss.



Do you remember that DLH was also under Arum? He left as well because he realized that Arum was taking most of the money earned from his talent! DLH left and made Golden Boy Promotions. Floyd Mayweather did the same and made Mayweather Promotions. What you are saying is idiotic when you actually think about it. DLH and Mayweather are somehow remiss for not letting Arum slave them? Go suck a d!ck, dude.



Shane Mosley, coming off a knockout win over Margarito, was not a legit fight? You're a fcuking idiot peasant. Shane was coming off his biggest win since DLH, and you say it wasn't a legit fight against Floyd. I'm debating a fcuking fool. Floyd isn't Pacquiao who waits until his opponents are coming off losses.

Ortiz is the WBC WW champion of the world. That is a real opponent. Who is Margarito fighting next? Who is Cotto fighting next? Each other? LOL! Who is Pacquiao fighting next? Marquez? Go sit the fcuk down and look at the corner.



EVERY SINGLE ARUM WW CANNOT HOLD ON FOR MORE THAN 12 MONTHS BEFORE THEY HAVE THEIR ASSS HANDED TO THEM! This is a fact. Pacquiao is not a WW. He is a catchweight contender. Margarito, Cotto and Clottey .. all Top Rank boxers .. have all been exposed within a 12 month period. You cannot duck a boxer who is not on top for more than 12 months. You cannot duck a boxer who is no longer a top contender after a 12 month period.

What you and other delusional peasants are attempting to make a case for is Mayweather not IMMEDIATELY running to fight Margarito and Cotto RIGHT AFTER they finally won a match over a significant name. Mayweather is NOT Mosley. He doesn't have to climb in the ring during their post-fight interviews to get a match. They want what Mayweather has, not the other way around, peasant.

Need a timeline?

July 2007 - Margarito is defeated by Paul Williams

November 2007 - Cotto defeats Mosley

December 2007 - Mayweather TKO's Hatton and takes a hiatus

July 2008 - Margarito TKO's Cotto - Margarito is now #1 because with Mayweather gone, Cotto moved up from #2 to #1.

January 2009 - Mosley TKO's Margarito and Margarito is banned - Mosley is now #1WW

September 2009 - Mayweather decisions Marquez

November 2009 - Pacquiao TKO's Cotto for vacant belt

May 2010 - Mayweather dominates Mosley - Mayweather is now #1 WW

June 2010 - Cotto TKO's Yuri Foreman

November 2010 - Pacquiao decisions the still-banned Margarito for vacant belt

May 2011 - Pacquiao decisions Mosley

What's next?

Pacquiao is fighting Marquez. Mayweather is fighting Victor Ortiz for the WBC WW world championship.

That timeline shows just how full of **** you are when you say that someone was ducking. None of them were ducking. They were too busy getting KO'd and dominated to be ducked! To be ducked you have to keep winning and remain on top to say "When will I get my chance. I keep winning but you won't fight me". NONE OF THOSE BUMS WERE EVER IN THAT POSITION! Only Pacquiao has been able to remain on top and he did that by stipulating catchweights, rehydration clauses and targeting fighters ONLY after they lost so that they would be in a position of weakness as the negotiation table.

THAT'S how the game is played, peasant.



You mean the Margarito who lost to Daniel Santos? Or the Margarito whose claim to fame was defending a vacant WBO belt he got from Antonio Diaz? Again, you are a fcuking joke. If you ever told the truth you'd probably have a seizure and die.



Cotto would have to have been a real challenge for retirement to have been the "safe option". Cotto was proven to be a guy who had gotten a brake with his win over Mosley. In his next big fight he got blasted. In his next big fight after that he got blasted again. The guy had to leave the division because he knew he was outmanned.



If Pac was the man you think he is and AGREED TO EVERYTHING, the fight would already be done. You, like so many peasants like yourself, subscribe to Arum's conjecture rather than the facts. NOTHING you say will change the fact that Pacquiao said that he agreed to EVERYTHING. Yet all the boxing world has is more excuses as to why Pacquiao is procrastinating. Now its USADA. Next it will be the court case being used as an excuse.



Again, no one is hailing Floyd as one of the best WW of all time. He's the best WW since Shane Mosley. Shane Mosley was a better WW than DLH. With this upcoming Ortiz fight Mayweather will trump those two and Trinidad.

If Margarito, Cotto or Clottey were worth their weight in horse **** at WW, what would a win over them now hold? Absolutely nothing. And the funny thing is that they were all worthless BEFORE Pacquiao beat them!!! LMAOOOOOOOOO Fcuking overhyped Top Rank garbage. The only real use that Margarito, Cotto and Clottey ever had was to bolster up Manny Pacquiao's questionable WW & jrMW credentials. That's the facts, Jack.

Cotto served as a sacrificial lamb to Pacquiao so Manny could earn a vacant WW paper title. Margarito served as a sacrificial lamb to Pacquiao so Manny could earn a vacant jrMW paper title. Clottey served to quiet critics that said Manny wouldn't fight slick Black fighters. Clottey ain't slick, but he sure is Black!

Even now, Mayweather is looking for quality over sheer quantity. After Ortiz, who knows? *******s and other idiots will keep barking challenges until Floyd gets too old or goes up too high and loses. Then they will attack his legacy like they did with Roy Jones jr.

Roger was right. You fcuking peasants don't know boxing. You haven't been watching before 2000. You work off of a limited understanding of the dynamics of the boxing game and an even more limited understanding of boxing itself.

Cotto won only one meaningful fight at WW. Then he was relegated to obscurity.
Same for Margarito. Same for Clottey. You peasants just can't understand that the point in which you face a fighter is just as important as the fighter himself. That dynamic is totally beyond all of you peasants.

*******s and idiots alike seem to think that no matter the point you face a fighter, it doesn't matter. The win is on the resume. That's bull****. Pacquiao might as well call out Sugar Ray Leonard and beat him. Then he can say that he's beat an all time great. Wlad Klitschko might as well call out Muhammad Ali and beat him to be called the greatest.

When a man is winning and on top, he is worth something. When that same man is coming off a loss, is ranked 5th or below and has struggled since the loss, a win over him doesn't hold the same greatness as it once did. Get that through your fcuking heads, peasants.

Make sure you factor in that Cotto asked to quit against Pacquiao. That's the heart of a prime champion, huh?

Peasants and their dreams. You gotta pity them.

[Cash Cow]

if floyd did indeed not call out cotto...

still, floyd did duck cotto........up to now

when?

[Cash Cow]

It's a shame that fight never happen at 147. Also Cotto-Hatton would have been another great fight at 147/140.

I dont think think fight would have ever been great....maybe the hype..but not the actual bout