what was edwin valero chances at 140?

[PandaKilla]

other than by valero who ko'd pitalua? demarco's never been down.

paulie v khan looks absolutely nothing like valero v khan imo.

So Valero KO'd a guy who was 39? Not gonna say I know this guy at all, I won't lie but OK.

So the subject who we are talking of, in terms of what his power is like, is Valero, is also used to measure Demarco's chin?

Who is Demarco exactly? Could he beat anyone at 140? Could he beat Soto at 135?



I didn't say it would be like Paulie, they are different fighters, but Khan could hit Valero's face like he hit Paulie. Both have fast footwork and are speedy, and have low hands. Khan is pretty acurate and would land on Valero's face no doubt, but also he doesn't hang around to get hit.

[MACAQUEINBLACK]

I agree that Valero may have shown up to be even better than we thought, you never know until you are tested.

Prince Naz may have lsot abit of drive VS Barerra, but he was shown up non the less. Your drive outside the ring is just as important, your opponent may be running that extra miles at 4 AM, or that little more padwork.

Valero does well in sparring, and apparently trained ahrd, but who knows how much he would have done with his mental state, and also drug use?

There's more of a legitimate question-mark over the bold than about his potential in pure ability terms.

It's a testament to Valero's work-ethic and drive in the gym that he could do as well as he did and develop as he did with chronic substance-abuse issues dogging him intermittently throughout his career (as far as I'm aware, those are something that started in his troubled youth and followed him into boxing). Those issues could have been his downfall in the end, anyway; while his agitated mindstate might have even been a benefit in the ring in some ways, it's likely that the damage he was doing to his body was leeching small amounts from his physical performance - the body can only hold up under that kind of strain for so long before it starts to tell dramatically.

I agree on Khan benefiting from quality sparring, but also pre Maidana, I saw Khan doing padwork with Roach and ducking in his own way,. then Roach told him, not like that or you get a hook, do it at this angle.

What I was referring to re. Khan wasn't the opportunity of better sparring per se, although that's part of it, it's the standard of coaching overall. Prior to starting work at the Wild Card, Khan had never fought as a pro in the style that best suited his attributes and assets. The basic style had to be taught to him and just that (along with strength and conditioning assistance from a guy who actually worked with boxers and not rugby players) produced results. There had never been much rhyme or reason to how Amir had fought in the pros before he teamed with Roach.

He still lacks body movement, and doesn;t duck enough, but like Pac, he may learn it, I dunno.

I think he's less athletically flexible than a Pacquiao, is comparatively stiff. That's not to say he isn't an excellent athlete, but his is a different kind of athleticism, one that has drawbacks or limits in boxing.

That's what I see, and I've made the observation a lot here in the past when discussing about what I see as the limits on Amir's potential.

Khan is the better fighter for me.

I'll never believe that Khan is a more natural fighter than Valero. I see Khan as a professional athlete more than a fighter, an athlete with heart and will, but not with pure fighting instincts (Valero had those).

I believe Valero would have beaten Amir.

He holds his hands up a lot higher and his jab seems faster and stronger to me, which he said Roach has been working hard on pre Paulie. His hands up was something Barry Mcguigan always pointed out when Khan haad his first 10 or so fights. It became a bad habit that Harrison never corrected.

What I'm saying is, Roach has built Amir's recent success on pinpointing, sharpening and fluently combining basic elements that already existed. Khan boxes now from a basic blueprint he always should and would have boxed from at the start of his pro career if the coaching standards in this country weren't so pathetically low. Keeping your hands up is a basic of boxing, Roach shouldn't get too much credit for correcting that.

I still don't see a lot of dimensions in Amir's game. I see more potential for reveal, for nuances unfurling themselves, in Valero's performances.

[patpatpts]

IMO Valero was overrated!! Who did he beat that makes people think he was so great and would destroy everyone at 140. Please, people on here say JMM would not beat anyone at 140 but all of a sudden Valero is greater then JMM and would beat Khan, Maidana, Bradely. He did not even fight any good fighter at 135, he could of fought Guerrero, Katsidis, Soto, JMM, Why didnt he???!! GTFOH

yea this is so true. he wouldn't even make it to 140 cause jmm would have knock him out.

i would have made a lot of epoints

[PandaKilla]

On my I phone so can't really post properly. Good points there but I see Amir sill young with much to learn.

He is athletic, and in terms of his flexibilty, I believe it is more practice than just your body. If you are confident that it helps you, and practice, then it will come in use. He already ducked a few times VS Kotelnik but it looked awkward, but that can be worked on to improve.

Pacman is very fluid now, something tha he didn't have before, but maybe Khan should stick to his jab and controlling a fight.

I see Khan being much more versatile than Valero in fact.

Valero would wait, hands low, and hit you with 3 or 4 punches or throw it. He may move back at times if he sees you punch, but always back 2 steps. His combo's were pretty much the same.

The only thing maybe that was different, he was more patient but it was still the same stuff to me. Maybe because he didn't need to box or run, that we didn't see it.

Khan has showed he can dominate going forward, and can going backwards as such vs kotelnik, hold when needed, and move in and out when needed.

Boh have things to learn, or had fo Valero, but Khan was still a fighter.


Yes Valero loved to fight and was a caveman, but Khan also has that spirit inside him, which use to get him into trouble. roach has set him game plans and he is more patient, but Khan has that fighter in him too, even when hurt he still will try and fight. It happened vs limond, gomez, maidana and he even tried to fight prescott when he went down.

The basic things roach has given him is just that, but the game plans alng with ensuring he doesn't go bacl to the bad habits is a good indicator of the success roach has.

Valero's drug abuse may have helped him, or not in boxing, but he had defensive flaws that could see him in trouble, and it would have needed to be corrected vs fast guys, powrrful guus or guys who kept pressure going forward.

[MACAQUEINBLACK]

Yes Valero loved to fight and was a caveman, but Khan also has that spirit inside him, which use to get him into trouble. roach has set him game plans and he is more patient, but Khan has that fighter in him too, even when hurt he still will try and fight. It happened vs limond, gomez, maidana and he even tried to fight prescott when he went down.

I saw eagerness to please, naivete and willing/heart in Amir's early performances. I also think the lack of schooling I was referring to above played a part in his openness. His naivete wasn't taken in hand, nobody really showed him how to maximize his assets in the pros, he didn't know how to fight the smart way, the way his natural strengths are best suited to.

Valero was simply an animal possessed of a killer's mentality (I'm talking in the ring). Khan isn't.


Khan has a good physique and is athletic, it benefits him in many ways. I just detect inherent limits to his athleticism, limits that aren't an issue for some other guys.
Of course work is essential, but there are limits to the dividends it produces for most guys. Khan is more gifted in that way than many, but there are others more gifted than him.

[PandaKilla]

What are you pro and cons about Amir athletically.

Also boxing wise.

If you can elaborate so I know what you mean.

Plus your thoughts in him VS Bradley.

[MACAQUEINBLACK]

What are you pro and cons about Amir athletically.

Also boxing wise.

If you can elaborate so I know what you mean.

Plus your thoughts in him VS Bradley.

I feel that swift footwork can be mistaken for fluid (or great) footwork; I see -- and this is relative, ofc -- that Khan's feet move quickly but also clumsily at times, putting his balance off or leaving him vulnerably positioned pretty often - he doesn't have abysmal footwork or anything, but I don't think it's exceptionally good or great.

That long body isn't as lithesome and fluidly maneuvered as you'd want of a fighter who allows himself to be walked down in the way Khan allowed Maidana. You don't want to see Khan needing to bend at the waist or contort his body to get out of tight spots, because that's not really his forte; his jab and footwork should be keeping the other guy off him and off balance, giving Khan openings to push him back with bunches of shots. If he's able to do that, to control the more naturally aggressive and physically strong types of opponent off his jab, with more purposeful movement of his feet, then the point I'm raising is moot.

What guy entering a gym for the first time wouldn't want to be as long, tall (at the weight), strong and swift of hand as Amir is? But he needs his jab to be a commanding, dominant weapon against the real hardy, come-forward guys, not Paulie Malignaggi.



It's no secret he lacks on the inside, but that doesn't need to hold him back. I don't think his ring IQ is fantastic, I don't see the ability to think that quickly, or far ahead of the other guy, in the fight. He doesn't move his head much.

For me, it's all about how commanding a weapon his jab can become and what he can add to his game to perfect a style built around that weapon. That's the key to future success, IMO.



Khan-Bradley, I've spoke of before; in short, I just think Bradley is closer to mastering his style (which is adaptable) and is more confident in it right now than can be said of Amir and his. That's not to say that Amir lacks confidence in his work, but that Bradley is oozing confidence and is a versatile fighter t'boot.









As for what Valero revealed in the later fights; a more purposeful and effective jab (doubled and tripled), subtly varied combinations, more feints, reflexes, the ability to slip and evade punches.

[BG_Knocc_Out]

The only fighters that really have the best chance out of the 140 bunch are the ones with great backward footwork. I think Amir is the only who beats him because he lunges backward and is great at stepping out of range after he gets his shots in. Valero does great when he's got his opponent in front of him. I don't think Bradley, Alexander, Maidana, and Peterson can keep the backward footwork up for a full 12 rounds. Valero also presents a subtly, the greatest illusion. He normally looks extremely hittable which makes his opponents gain a bit of confidence to land more shots than needed on him, allowing them to opponent up, and then Valero capitalizing.

[PandaKilla]

I feel that swift footwork can be mistaken for fluid (or great) footwork; I see -- and this is relative, ofc -- that Khan's feet move quickly but also clumsily at times, putting his balance off or leaving him vulnerably positioned pretty often - he doesn't have abysmal footwork or anything, but I don't think it's exceptionally good or great.

That long body isn't as lithesome and fluidly maneuvered as you'd want of a fighter who allows himself to be walked down in the way Khan allowed Maidana. You don't want to see Khan needing to bend at the waist or contort his body to get out of tight spots, because that's not really his forte; his jab and footwork should be keeping the other guy off him and off balance, giving Khan openings to push him back with bunches of shots. If he's able to do that, to control the more naturally aggressive and physically strong types of opponent off his jab, with more purposeful movement of his feet, then the point I'm raising is moot.

What guy entering a gym for the first time wouldn't want to be as long, tall (at the weight), strong and swift of hand as Amir is? But he needs his jab to be a commanding, dominant weapon against the real hardy, come-forward guys, not Paulie Malignaggi.



It's no secret he lacks on the inside, but that doesn't need to hold him back. I don't think his ring IQ is fantastic, I don't see the ability to think that quickly, or far ahead of the other guy, in the fight. He doesn't move his head much.

For me, it's all about how commanding a weapon his jab can become and what he can add to his game to perfect a style built around that weapon. That's the key to future success, IMO.



Khan-Bradley, I've spoke of before; in short, I just think Bradley is closer to mastering his style (which is adaptable) and is more confident in it right now than can be said of Amir and his. That's not to say that Amir lacks confidence in his work, but that Bradley is oozing confidence and is a versatile fighter t'boot.







As for what Valero revealed in the later fights; a more purposeful and effective jab (doubled and tripled), subtly varied combinations, more feints, reflexes, the ability to slip and evade punches.

Khan's footwork isn't fluid as such, it never has been, but never bad either. He is athletic and has fast feet yes, but the main thing, he controls range extremely well, popping in and out.

As for his body, I feel he can bend, and that he can learn to do it more. His body is long yes, but remember he was wider and toner up the top before at 135, and Ariza has stopped him doing as many weights and made his legs stronger. Better for boxing.

Pac was long and thin at the lower weights himself, and I do not feel bulking up has allowed him to duck etc... which he does a lot now. Indeed the best part of Khan's game is to control distance and jab away, but adding the ability or confidence to try and duck a few times doesn't hurt.

His jab indeed needs to be there all the time, not just come forward guys. It's powerful, fast and can make Khan as difficult to touch as say Wladimir.

His inside game is poor, no doubt about it. His boxing IQ was very raw when younger, but he has learnt to hold, and roll with shots. He also controls range a lot better than boxer. He does come across and erratic which I agree on.

He feints more, and seems to be able to read each round while it happens, and knows what to do to win it back.

His jab is defintiely the key to his success. Something that has time to improve on for sure.


Bradley definitely can beat Khan indeed. He is the older guy with more experience. His style can give Khan nightmares.

[PandaKilla]

So far people who are siding with Valero are saying:

Valero has power. Why? Demarco has a world class chin. Who has Demarco fought to show that his chin is world class? The answer: He fought Valero who stopped Pitulua who hasn't been stopped even though he was 39 at the time.

OKAY...





Questioned on who on his resume is proof he can take world class guys at 140.

He has beating world class guys in sparring such as Antillion.
Ok the guy who lost to Soto at 135 and someone else before. The guy who made his name on sparring pac.

He beat a few green guys and has been beat by them in sparring himself.

Morales didn't do anything above 130.

Oscar was showed to be nothing by Pac at that stage.

BUT Since when was sparring held to judge a prize fighter's career?




Then they say he showed stuff in the Demarco fight that he wasn't just a brawler such as feinting, countering and showed he could have gone another level. He could have got better.

Good stuff, but you have to look at the opponent. In boxing, is it not almost always the case that when you step up the opposition, that you rarely look as good as someone who has no defence, slow hands, slow feet, and hasn't proven anything VS guys who are champs?

Apart from maybe being taller and longer, Demarco had nothing that surpassed or even amtched Valero. That is how I judge that fight. If Demarco beat anyone worthy himself then respect, but not yet for me.



Other fans say: Boxing trainers and Doug Fischer said Valero could have beaten anyone.

Yes it is true, anyone could beat anyone, but there are always losers.



Then there is a comparison with Pacquiao.

True, maybe similar, but Pacquaio was facing guys such as Barrera at 126. HOF fighters.

Secondly Pacquaio has lost himself to Morales since he went big.




Questioned on why does Valero have his hands lows and moves backward only which lead him to get hit by Demarco.

Not really sure who even touched that.



Questioned on why does Valero only throw 1,2,1,2 shots over and over, and nothing else and how would that do VS guys who may be able to read him?

Pac only had a jab and left hand.

That part is true to some extent, but Pac had a world class trainer to learn his trade, to get better movement and a right hand.




Questioned on how do you know Valero would go up to 140 easily.


His body type would be able to do it. It's not about height.

He only had a few fights at 135, boxrec says 3. VS a 39 year old, and a 36 year old and Demarco.

Hardly any guys who can let you know how well you would do going up in weight.



Question would his speed and power travel up to 140?


Who knows. Isn't his game all about speed and power though?



How would Valero deal with someone powerful as him?

How would he deal with guys who are faster than him?

Guys who throw as much as him?

Guys who could take him to 12 rounds?

Guys who have better ring IQ than him?




They say Valero has showed in the Demarco fight that he had a different game. Well the damn game he had in the first place was like connect 4 compared to chess. He was really raw, and by showing some feints, some counters vs a green guy isn't enough.



VALERO could have been a big deal, yes I agree, but he would defintiely need to work on not moving backwards only, but use some lateral movement to get away from shots.

He could do with hands abit higher because anyone as fast as him could hit him.

He could do with some body and head movement, particularly the head. Demarco landed some good shots on him, but he didn;t throw much.

To hit a guy as much as he did at 135, he didn;t even drop him. One step up in class and he didn;t drop him, so I can not see him KO'ing guys at 140 who won't just stand there or have better chins.

WOULD VALERO BEAT JMM AT 135?

I don;t think so.