what was edwin valero chances at 140?

[PandaKilla]

If anything, I think his style has made him look worse than he is to many.

He fought recklessly for much of his pro career and his openness in those fights gave the impression he lacked skill and nuance. The more he would move up, though, the more he would shore up (while remaining an aggressive fighter).


Oh, yeah. Amir Khan looked like he had a lot of power against Graham Earl. Against Kotelnik and Maidana, nope.

You don't need to be the fastest guy or the hardest hitter, if you can be fast, hit hard and have other nuances. Valero undoubtably hit very hard, though; some guys are just harder to move, DeMarco took some decent shots well and was just surviving in there come the mid-rounds, but anyone who doubts that Valero was a distinct one-shot threat to all but the most granite-chinned of fighters has missed a few beats.

I agree that people thought Valero was a wreckless cave man.

Secondly Valero does have pop, but not 1 punch KO power. I have seen a lot of early stoppages where guys aren't 100% gone.

One punch KO power is a guy who can KO you with precisely that. Valero often hit people with a lot, and I mean a lot to break them down.

I agree that you do not need to be a 1 punch KO guy to make it big in boxing. However these Valero fan boys are talking like he would KO everyone.

Valero would not KO Alexander, Kotelnik, Maidana and Bradley the more I think of it. Even Khan with his long arms would be able to control him.

Khan could move around and not get hit as much as Demarco.

Maidana has a pretty good chin and always got up. Plus he has power himself and more speed than people realise.

Bradley has too much pressure, inside game and body movement.

Alexander has a decent chin and has speed and power to be a threat.

Kotelnik's defence is very tight. His chin is good.

Khan VS Paulei looked pretty good, very fas,t nice jab and power. Steps up to Maidnaa and his jab and power doesn't look so good.

This will be the case with Valero, he will not look as good, but the jump from facing a Demarco to a Bradley is a lot. A hell of a lot.



Somewhere down this documentary you will hear of him havinbg trouble with the Santiago's. Although he did come back once and own them, but they had their way with him too.

[PandaKilla]

And Alexander deserved to be ranked highly, objectively speaking, because of his wins over Corley and Witter and the (impressive on paper) stoppage of Urango. I just never saw him as a guy who would amass a body of exceptional work at world-class is all; though his best results were pretty creditable, I thought he looked limited and would come unstuck when he came up against guys closer to their primes than Corley/Witter and guys with more talent than Urango.

In temrs of ranking, he had a decent resume, but break it down, then there are flaws.

Same with how he boxes.

Putting Soto through hell for 12 rounds isn't too bad.

At 135.

He has lost before. Soto is OK but not all that himself, even at the champ at 135, he still isn't that great comapred to the guys at 135 in the past.

[PandaKilla]

Furstly, I would like to say sorry for saying the santIAGO brothers, iT IS SANTA CRUZ.



OK so let's analyse his fight with Demarco.

Valero has low hands which he always had, when he gets attacked he moves back in straight lines with his chin up. Always, and Demarco has like no speed compared to Alexander, Khan and Bradley.

Bradley would swarm him, going only back isn't good enough.

AGREE OR NOT?

Lack of head movement. Khan's jab would hitthat target all day long.

AGREE OR NOT?

He throws a lot of shots that miss anytime Demarco ducked, and Demarco doesn't exactly have great reflexes. Bradley would make him miss all day.

AGREE OR NOT?

Demarco's jabbed landed a fair few times.

Again, Kotelnik and Khan could box him.

AGREE OR NOT?

Valero has a lot of looping, short punches. So you need to get closek, but even then his inside game is limited to just that. His head is still tall and hanging there. In fact these are almost arm punches.

AGREE OR NOT?

Demarco doesn't have the best defence at all

AGREE OR NOT?

CAPS, BUT **** IT. I AINT EDITING.

OPEN SCORING HELPED DEMARCO THINK **** IT. I CAN;T WIN.

FIGHT IS AT 135.

DEMARCO IS STILL GREEN TO ME, AND NOTORIOUS FOR BEING A SLOW STARTER BTW BUT OK LET'S GO:


VALERO HAS NO DEFENSE ON HIS HEAD, WHEN YOU COME IN, HE STANDS THERE OR MAYBE MOVES BACK WITH HIS EHAD OUT AND THROWS HIS PUNCHES BACK. YOU CAN NOT DO THAT AT WORLD LEVEL.

IN FACT WATCHING IT AGAIN, ALL VALERO RELIED ON WAS THROWING BACK MORE, AND DIDN'T USE MUCH SKILL. HE STOOD THERE MOST OF THE TIME, GOT HIT MAYBE ONCE BUT LANDED MORE BACK. HE DID NOT SHOW THAT HE COULD IMPROVE OR BE BETTER, OR BEAT ANYONE AT 140. ESPECIALLY SINCE HE FOUGHT AT 135...

HE WAS A HEAD HUNTER, MAYBE A FEW STRAIGHT TO THE BODY, BUT HE WAS ALWAYS OPEN. DEMARCO PUNCHED HIS MOUTH PIECE OUT WITH A LOVELY LEFT IN ROUND 2.

IF DEMARCO WAS ACCURATE, THEN HE WOULD HVE HAD SUCCESS. VALERO'S HEAD WAS ALWAYS THERE TO BE HIT, BUT HE ALWAYS THREW BACK.

HIS LAST 3 FIGHTS BEFORE DEMARCO, AGES 34, 36 AND 39. THE COMMENTATORS EVEN SAID HE DIDN'T FACE GREAT OPPOSITION.

19 IN THE FIRST ROUND, SO THAT SHOWS YOU HOW MANY BUMS HE FACED. DEMARCO TOOK SOME GOOD SHOTS.

ROUND 3, VALERO RAN INTO A FEW GOOD SHOTS. HE IS TOO OPEN. WAY TOO OPEN.

ROUND 4, DEMARCO LANDED NCIE JABS, BUT THE VOLUME FROM VALERO WON HIM IT.
DEMARCO IS VERY OPEN, HAS NO DEFENSE HIMSELF. HE IS TOO EASY TO HIT.

round 5, valero mouth was wide open. Plus it's a lot mroe tiring when you throw and miss, but Valero couldn't miss at all by this stage.

round 6, Demarco hit a lvoely right hook. Demarco's shots that hit ahrd look stronger than Valero's. Valero is just outpunching him a lot.
Valero is always there when he throws his combo's, his head held damn high. Always open for counters.
Shame DEMARCO wasn't a better fighter.

round 7

Demarco has a nice right hook again, damn man Maidana, bradley would hit him on that button all day long. Valero still dominated, but shows me signs his defence is too open.

round 8

Valero is still getting tagged with that right hand easily, but demarco just isn;t that good to hit him that much, he hasn't got that speed.

round 9.

valero again is out punching him. The power doesn't look like 1 punch ko power to me. Demarco got buzzed maybe 2 or 3 times. His legs still looked strong until he quit. He was gassed and quit.

So who is Demarco? No noticeable wins to me. Young at 24. Green.

Fairly open defence, not so much power or speed.

He was no test for Valero, certainly not a top 135 fighter let alone at 140.



AND Valero, good heart, good workrate, nice snap in his punces, decent speed and footwork.

HOWEVER, his defence is always open, head always there, chin up, he only moves back 1 or 2 steps when he gets attacke,d no lateral movement, when he throws como's he got tagged with hooks.

Nah, I aint sold on him. Demarco wasn't an old bum, like Valero's last opponent who was 39 and had 13 loses in Valzasquez. BUT that doesn't mean he was good either.

[MACAQUEINBLACK]

Secondly Valero does have pop, but not 1 punch KO power. I have seen a lot of early stoppages where guys aren't 100% gone.

One punch KO power is a guy who can KO you with precisely that. Valero often hit people with a lot, and I mean a lot to break them down.

I didn't say anything about KO's. By "one-punch threat", I mean he can hurt you and set you up to be stopped with a single shot.

Valero would not KO Alexander, Kotelnik, Maidana and Bradley the more I think of it. Even Khan with his long arms would be able to control him.

He'd stop Alexander, no doubt in my mind. That guy would have an **** prolapse right there in the ring with Valero coming at him.

Khan could move around and not get hit as much as Demarco.

Khan is hittable even on the move and DeMarco is well-schooled and fought with discipline against Valero, he didn't just get hit for fun in that fight.

Kotelnik is a slow guy with not much power, that's the only real example of Khan ever skating away from any fighter for 12 rounds. Valero is fast and hits hard. Too vicious, too much fighting impulse.

This will be the case with Valero, he will not look as good, but the jump from facing a Demarco to a Bradley is a lot. A hell of a lot.

I'm a big advocate of Bradley's ability.

The problem is, he doesn't have anything that Valero couldn't walk through. If Valero gets cut by Bradley's head, he'll fight harder. It's a good fight, though, and I won't say Bradley can't win. I also think Valero can overtake him down the stretch, though. And a stoppage isn't impossible.



One minute you're saying sparring isn't significant, the next you're citing the Santa Cruz bros. as proof that Valero's not the real deal.

He won many more of his gym wars than he lost, and he was an advanced student of that scene.
Those remarks were also made some years back, and there are as many accounts of Valero putting Jose Armando down on his ass with headgear on (you know that Pitalua knocked Santa Cruz out and Valero destroyed that guy in 2, right?). The whole point of sparring is to learn. DeMarco was a tall, long guy, too, and you saw how Valero dealt with that.

At 135.

He has lost before. Soto is OK but not all that himself, even at the champ at 135, he still isn't that great comapred to the guys at 135 in the past.

You said Antillon wasn't a top pro. He's just been in a FOTY contender with a two-weight titlist.

He's lost before...what is that?


FWIW; Valero's physical build could certainly accomodate a move up to 140 - height and length aren't the only assets that can facilitate a successful move up in weight.

In temrs of ranking, he had a decent resume, but break it down, then there are flaws.

Same with how he boxes.

Yeah, I know. I've never viewed Alexander as any kind of titan. He had a nice dossier for where he was at (paper titles shouldn't mislead anyone into believing he was much more than a contender still); now he's started tangling with more prime and/or more talented guys, the cracks are starting to show.

There were no more flaws in his run than the flaws in Khan's wins over Kotelnik, Salita, Malignaggi, though, which is why I ranked Alexander accordingly. He'd earned it at that point. Things have changed, Alexander faltered at the next hurdles, Khan took on and just about handled Maidana, so now I'd likely have Khan in front of him.

[Dagomba]

Furstly, I would like to say sorry for saying the santIAGO brothers, iT IS SANTA CRUZ.

OK so let's analyse his fight with Demarco.

Valero has low hands which he always had, when he gets attacked he moves back in straight lines with his chin up. Always, and Demarco has like no speed compared to Alexander, Khan and Bradley.

Bradley would swarm him, going only back isn't good enough.

AGREE OR NOT?

Lack of head movement. Khan's jab would hitthat target all day long.

AGREE OR NOT?

He throws a lot of shots that miss anytime Demarco ducked, and Demarco doesn't exactly have great reflexes. Bradley would make him miss all day.

AGREE OR NOT?

Demarco's jabbed landed a fair few times.

Again, Kotelnik and Khan could box him.

AGREE OR NOT?

Valero has a lot of looping, short punches. So you need to get closek, but even then his inside game is limited to just that. His head is still tall and hanging there. In fact these are almost arm punches.

AGREE OR NOT?

Demarco doesn't have the best defence at all

AGREE OR NOT?

CAPS, BUT **** IT. I AINT EDITING.

OPEN SCORING HELPED DEMARCO THINK **** IT. I CAN;T WIN.

FIGHT IS AT 135.

DEMARCO IS STILL GREEN TO ME, AND NOTORIOUS FOR BEING A SLOW STARTER BTW BUT OK LET'S GO:


VALERO HAS NO DEFENSE ON HIS HEAD, WHEN YOU COME IN, HE STANDS THERE OR MAYBE MOVES BACK WITH HIS EHAD OUT AND THROWS HIS PUNCHES BACK. YOU CAN NOT DO THAT AT WORLD LEVEL.

IN FACT WATCHING IT AGAIN, ALL VALERO RELIED ON WAS THROWING BACK MORE, AND DIDN'T USE MUCH SKILL. HE STOOD THERE MOST OF THE TIME, GOT HIT MAYBE ONCE BUT LANDED MORE BACK. HE DID NOT SHOW THAT HE COULD IMPROVE OR BE BETTER, OR BEAT ANYONE AT 140. ESPECIALLY SINCE HE FOUGHT AT 135...

HE WAS A HEAD HUNTER, MAYBE A FEW STRAIGHT TO THE BODY, BUT HE WAS ALWAYS OPEN. DEMARCO PUNCHED HIS MOUTH PIECE OUT WITH A LOVELY LEFT IN ROUND 2.

IF DEMARCO WAS ACCURATE, THEN HE WOULD HVE HAD SUCCESS. VALERO'S HEAD WAS ALWAYS THERE TO BE HIT, BUT HE ALWAYS THREW BACK.

HIS LAST 3 FIGHTS BEFORE DEMARCO, AGES 34, 36 AND 39. THE COMMENTATORS EVEN SAID HE DIDN'T FACE GREAT OPPOSITION.

19 IN THE FIRST ROUND, SO THAT SHOWS YOU HOW MANY BUMS HE FACED. DEMARCO TOOK SOME GOOD SHOTS.

ROUND 3, VALERO RAN INTO A FEW GOOD SHOTS. HE IS TOO OPEN. WAY TOO OPEN.

ROUND 4, DEMARCO LANDED NCIE JABS, BUT THE VOLUME FROM VALERO WON HIM IT.
DEMARCO IS VERY OPEN, HAS NO DEFENSE HIMSELF. HE IS TOO EASY TO HIT.

round 5, valero mouth was wide open. Plus it's a lot mroe tiring when you throw and miss, but Valero couldn't miss at all by this stage.

round 6, Demarco hit a lvoely right hook. Demarco's shots that hit ahrd look stronger than Valero's. Valero is just outpunching him a lot.
Valero is always there when he throws his combo's, his head held damn high. Always open for counters.
Shame DEMARCO wasn't a better fighter.

round 7

Demarco has a nice right hook again, damn man Maidana, bradley would hit him on that button all day long. Valero still dominated, but shows me signs his defence is too open.

round 8

Valero is still getting tagged with that right hand easily, but demarco just isn;t that good to hit him that much, he hasn't got that speed.

round 9.

valero again is out punching him. The power doesn't look like 1 punch ko power to me. Demarco got buzzed maybe 2 or 3 times. His legs still looked strong until he quit. He was gassed and quit.

So who is Demarco? No noticeable wins to me. Young at 24. Green.

Fairly open defence, not so much power or speed.

He was no test for Valero, certainly not a top 135 fighter let alone at 140.



AND Valero, good heart, good workrate, nice snap in his punces, decent speed and footwork.

HOWEVER, his defence is always open, head always there, chin up, he only moves back 1 or 2 steps when he gets attacke,d no lateral movement, when he throws como's he got tagged with hooks.

Nah, I aint sold on him. Demarco wasn't an old bum, like Valero's last opponent who was 39 and had 13 loses in Valzasquez. BUT that doesn't mean he was good either.

The bold is completely false. Do you realize the way you describe him sounds a lot like pacquiao at 125? Pacquiao had better head movement but he lacked punch variation. Valero lacked head movement but he knew how to throw more than a straight left hand.

I'm not saying Valero was a great, I think he was on his way to be a top contender. He was beggining to show something different.

[PandaKilla]

I didn't say anything about KO's. By "one-punch threat", I mean he can hurt you and set you up to be stopped with a single shot.

Well, IMO he rarely throwes with just one punch. He comes with right, left right left. BUT his punches hit and have some snap I agree.


He'd stop Alexander, no doubt in my mind. That guy would have an **** prolapse right there in the ring with Valero coming at him.

I can see Alexander tagging him all day long IMO, close fight but he loses.


Khan is hittable even on the move and DeMarco is well-schooled and fought with discipline against Valero, he didn't just get hit for fun in that fight.

Demarco is a slow starter from what I have heard. I will say I do not know him, but that makes it worse, he isn;t that good most likely. Who is he?

Kotelnik is a slow guy with not much power, that's the only real example of Khan ever skating away from any fighter for 12 rounds. Valero is fast and hits hard. Too vicious, too much fighting impulse.

Kotelnik is a lot more technical than Demarco. Demarco holds his ahdns up but is always open, he doesn;t cover his head. Kotelnik isn't slow as people think. His legs are, but not his hands. His jab would alnd all day long. He would nto get stopped.

I'm a big advocate of Bradley's ability.

Yes I believe Bradley is the most dangerous at 140 still.

The problem is, he doesn't have anything that Valero couldn't walk through. If Valero gets cut by Bradley's head, he'll fight harder. It's a good fight, though, and I won't say Bradley can't win. I also think Valero can overtake him down the stretch, though. And a stoppage isn't impossible.

I don't think Bradley would get hit. Valero's loves to throw high, and anyone who ducks he msises. This was apparent in a few fights, particularly demarco and mosquera where they ducked and valero took a few punches to register. Plus Braldey always gets up.


One minute you're saying sparring isn't significant, the next you're citing the Santa Cruz bros. as proof that Valero's not the real deal.

I only made this point to show the guys who say sparring means nothing. It goes both ways. If you use it, then use it all.

He won many more of his gym wars than he lost, and he was an advanced student of that scene.
Those remarks were also made some years back, and there are as many accounts of Valero putting Jose Armando down on his ass with headgear on (you know that Pitalua knocked Santa Cruz out and Valero destroyed that guy in 2, right?). The whole point of sparring is to learn. DeMarco was a tall, long guy, too, and you saw how Valero dealt with that.


I agree that Demarco was tall and long, but he had little foot speed, little defense and speed. He was a southpaw, but there isn;t much in demarco to show me he is on the level of anyone at the top of 140.

Or who do you think he is simialr to?





Yeah, I know. I've never viewed Alexander as any kind of titan. He had a nice dossier for where he was at (paper titles notwithstanding); now he's started tangling with more prime and/or more talented guys, the cracks are starting to show.

Yeah I knew bradley was gonna beat him. They blamed the Kotelnik win or bad performance on being in his home tonw and trying toi imrpess, but looking at it, Kotelnik did all the pressure,. Alexander didn;t go wild t imrpess but was put down.

There were no more flaws in his run than the flaws in Khan's wins over Kotelnik, Salita, Malignaggi, though, which is why I ranked Alexander accordingly. He'd earned it at that point. He faltered at the next hurdles and things have changed, so, accordingly, now I'd likely have Khan in front of him.

I had Khan in front after the Kotelnik fight


You said Antillon wasn't a top pro. He's just been in a FOTY contender with a two-weight titlist.

He's lost before...what is that?

FOTY does not mean you're the best boxer. Gatti and Ward had FOTY but you can not say they were on Floyd's level or Roy's level.

Antillion lost before.

Soto is an OK fighter, but he is not on the level of Barrera etc... He also wouldn't beat anyone at 140 for me that is in the top 5.



Valero's physical build could certainly accomodate a move up to 140, height and length aren't the only assets that can facilitate a successful move up in weight.

He could have gone up maybe, but there is always a question. Would he lose some speed? Does his power at 140 travel up and aprticularly as you go up and face better guys who get hit less and have better chins.

To me, how Valero will do is all speculation, and with what facts or my own thoughts, he wouldn't be a top guy at 140.

Not only because he didn't fight at 140, it was who he has fought.

If he faces bigger guys with similar attributes, then OK maybe I see a case, but Demarco doesn't show me he is like anyone at 140

.............................

[PandaKilla]

The bold is completely false. Do you realize the way you describe him sounds a lot like pacquiao at 125? Pacquiao had better head movement but he lacked punch variation. Valero lacked head movement but he knew how to throw more than a straight left hand.

I'm not saying Valero was a great, I think he was on his way to be a top contender. He was beggining to show something different.

Pacquaio fought like that, but against world champs such as Barerra, Morales etc... room for improvement?
Yes indeed, but he had Roach who is also a world class trainer.

Also Pac did face more champs.

He could have gone up and in some ways I did see the similarity in Pac and him, but I also saw the guy who he fought.

Valero was 28 when he got his Visa to fight. How many years could he fight like how he does VS top guys? Guys who would hit him.

So yes he COULD have improved, but there is plenty of doubt, without the best trainer, and with age catching up on him.

Valero was a 1,2 1,2 fighter. Pac was maybe a jab, jabb then left.

HOWEVER I STILL STAND BY MY STATEMENT, PACMAN IS ANOTHER BEAST COMAPRED TO VALERO.

NO ONE KNEW WHAT PAC COULD DO GOING UP INDEED, BUT PAC ALSO HAS THE LUXURY TO NOT FACE ALL OF THE GUYS AS HE WENT UP.

[Dagomba]

Pacquaio fought like that, but against world champs such as Barerra, Morales etc... room for improvement?
Yes indeed, but he had Roach who is also a world class trainer.

Also Pac did face more champs.
He could have gone up and in some ways I did see the similarity in Pac and him, but I also saw the guy who he fought.

Valero was 28 when he got his Visa to fight. How many years could he fight like how he does VS top guys? Guys who would hit him.

So yes he COULD have improved, but there is plenty of doubt, without the best trainer, and with age catching up on him.

Doubt based on what? Because he didn't have Roach?

C'mon man there's a reason why his sparring partners, Doug Fisher and many California coaches said he was going to be good because they know boxing.

[MACAQUEINBLACK]

Replies in quotes are a pain in the ass.


Plus, Edwin's dead; none of us are proving this, either way.

I think he had the X Factor, the intagibles to go pretty far. You may not see it that way.



Everybody can think what they like. Fact is, Valero is a boxing folk-hero, he's Billy the Kid, he's Bonnie and Clyde, he's the Ten Tigers of Canton, he's from their cloth.

[PandaKilla]

The bold is completely false. Do you realize the way you describe him sounds a lot like pacquiao at 125? Pacquiao had better head movement but he lacked punch variation. Valero lacked head movement but he knew how to throw more than a straight left hand.

I'm not saying Valero was a great, I think he was on his way to be a top contender. He was beggining to show something different.

I will agree he did show something different though.

BUT still, whether he would have gone up to 140 and done well, no one knows.

Heck we didn't know how Pac would have done at 140 when he jump to 135 and fought Diaz.

Pac did change and improve and was young. He had a great team behind him, heck like 30 guys and the right mentality.

Valero was unstable outside the ring, but apparently did train hard. I dunno, the gulf between who he fought and who Pac fought was huge IMO.