Harder Hitter

[nomadman]

Ever seen anyone get up from a Tua knockdown and go on to win the fight?

Come to think of it when has a Wlad opponent ever been knocked down and went on to win the fight or even make it to the final bell? Off the top of my head only Brewster and Byrd.

Why did so many fighters survive against Shavers?

[nomadman]

I think tua's power is overRatEd. I mean he hit that nigerian guy with everything. Forgot his name now.

It may be a little overrated, but nowhere near to the same degree as Shavers'. And Tua has a far more impressive body of genuinely chilling KOs to support his case. But no fancy quotes from Ali and Holmes, alas.

[XionComrade]

But he did also fracture his left cheekbone with more or less the same punch. And Golota was a much bigger, stockier man than Smith.



Since when is causing injuries the prime criterion for determining knock out power? Haye smashed Ruiz's face in over nine rounds but Ruiz was at no time knocked unconscious. Tua turned his lights out in 20 seconds. You gonna tell me Haye hits harder based on the injuries he caused Ruiz? GTFO. Tua didn't smash people's faces in, he just knocked them stone cold unconscious. Oh, and you wanna see Tua break (or look like he breaks) someone's neck? Check out the end of the Izon fight.



Man, I hope the bolded was overstated as well. Rahman in his prime hit like a truck. It was the one stand out thing about him. His win was also quite clearly a case of Lennox overlooking an opponent and paying the price. Against Tua he did no such thing and was never at any time caught absolutely flush with a Tua left hook.



Foreman took ten rounds to KO Moorer and was hitting him with flush right hands before the knockout. It wasn't just a freak out of the blue hailmary shot like people like to state but rather one right hand too many. Tua on the other hand killed Moorer dead with a short barage of left hooks against the ropes in the opening 30 seconds of the first round. Did he push his teeth through his lip? Don't know, but I doubt Moorer cared to ponder that particular nuance at the time. Foreman, by the way, also landed that same shot several times on Morrison (now that guy did have a glass jaw). I trust you know the outcome to that fight.

Prime Ruiz was never a stiff by the way, and tends to get grossly underrated because of his horribly uncrowdpleasing style. He was also an extremely cagey and durable opponent who fought some big hitters but was only ever stopped again over ten years later in his retirement fight and well past his prime. You can't diminsh that win for Tua.

As for Lewis Rahman/Tua Rahman. Sure Lewis took Rahman out more impressively, but that was partly due to his phenomenal jab and excellent boxing skills as well as the fact that Rahman was always been a sucker for an overhand right (both Oleg fights) of which Lewis posseses one of the best. That was not a case of who hit harder but of who had the skills to land their power shot the flusher.



Sorry, boxing fans? Er, isn't that what you and I are?



Yeah, yeah alright. As I said, I'm not calling Holmes a liar, but I find it hard to see how one fighter who knocks you down hits harder than one who knocks you out, with more or less the same punch. Your example is cute, but getting hit with baseball bats and getting punched with a boxing glove aren't quite the same thing, since one is far more likely to leave painful surface injuries than the other. Getting hit by one hard puncher and getting hit by another hard puncher is another matter, and I speak from personal (if limited) experience when I say it's far more difficult to differentiate the two. But you obviously beg to differ. That's cool. By the way, Briggs went a combined 29 rounds with Foreman, Lewis and Vitali, taking numerous flush right hands from Vitali for 12 of those rounds and sustaining a fractured cheekbone, a fractured orbital bone, and an almighty concussion in the process. Surely he's also in the perfect position to judge the relative power of all three fighters when he says Vit hit harder, right? Or are you going to insist that he, too, doesn't know what he's talking about? Um...



But his mind was still clear, or rather fresh, from the fight (it was minutes not hours by the way). Plus, he had just taken about a hundred flush right hands from Vitali, an excellent sample size from which to draw his conclusion! And they obviously hurt, given the fact that he was out on his feet about three times during the fight, got his face broken and had to be rushed to the hospital after collapsing in his dressing room. What sane man wouldn't believe the slurred, semi-coherent words of a bloodied and battered up 38 year old past prime boxer suffering from severe post-fight concussion? Or indeed any man that gets his head punched in for a living?



Whoa there pardner, that's all I've been doing in this thread. Though I suppose I could just as easily refer to a bunch of quotes (which I'll then proceed to dismiss if they don't pertain to the fighter I'm arguing in favour of).

1. Haye is a overblown middleweight...how did he ever come into this discussion? Shavers did that to Smith in the second round, with one punch...Bring in the other factors before talking craziness...

2. Knockout Power? I have been meaning raw Power all thread long I must have kept adding in the knockout part :P ....Shavers did not likely have Tua's knockout power due to a lack of accuracy and timing imo...Just like he didn't have Tyson's knockout power...and obviously, he hit much harder than Tyson, same goes for George....Neither cared about accuracy and timing, all they had to do was land to get a good payday.

3. Rahman was absolutely a bum in comparison to the fighters we are discussing. The bolded statement is exactly what it is, he did not have punching power that compared with the likes of Tyson, Ruddock, Bruno, Wlad etc...much less Tua, Foreman, Shavers, Marciano. He ******, and was lazy in the gym...

4. True, and here is your best argument. Tua ruined Moorers world, not by hitting him on the chin, but to the freaking body and forehead in 20 seconds! Young George hits a world harder than Old, but that was just crazy. George only landed the two solid right hands in round 10, the other shots were all arm punches and partially blocked by Moorer, George slowly chopped him down to size.

5. Yeah I think that a jab was Tua's acid bath. I was surprised when Rahman was able to do so well against such a puncher, kind of a weird weakness in boxing, just a jab in general.

6. Tyson had to hit Holmes many times flush, but somewhere everyone has missed that. Shavers just hit him once to get the same effect, that fight could well have been stopped today...They also fail to recognize that Holmes was approaching 40 years old, and had been a professional for near 15 years...

7. The vast majority of boxing fans think that Mike Tyson would "KTFO 1 round lulz" Muhammad Ali, hit harder than George Foreman, and was so invincible he could take out the country of Iraq with his chin....So no, we are not typical boxing fans...

8. That old man Briggs took a awesome beating from Vitali, many flush shots which put him on the seat of his pants against Lewis in his prime, and was still never staggered and never did show any sign of getting ready to be KOed...He said that Vitali hit him hardest while he had a concussion, he said it in the ring....So no, I would take that statement with a bucket of salt, then give the man 3 months to recuperate and have him confirm...Fighters/people in general say crazy **** when their brain is bleeding

9. Nay sir, John Ruiz was a big nothing, a stiff waiting for a good fighter to beat his ass. Tua did it, Valuev did it(LOL), 40 year old Holyfield did it, and Jones did it his first fight at heavyweight...

[nomadman]

1. Haye is a overblown middleweight...how did he ever come into this discussion? Shavers did that to Smith in the second round, with one punch...Bring in the other factors before talking craziness...

Is there any confirmation that he did it with one punch? Shavers hit Smith with quite a bit before he got the TKO, including some illegal punches where Smith was crouched down in a corner stuck between the ring ropes, and therefore unable to roll with the punches, and a couple more where he was holding Smith's head with one glove and uppercutting him with the other. Unlike the Tyson fight there was no one clear punch that could be said to have done the majority of the damage.

As for Haye, yeah he is a blown up CW, who also happened to smash Ruiz's face in when Tua did not. My point, of course, being that causing injuries to an opponent does not in itself signify great Knockout Power, though Haye can certainly crack.

2. Knockout Power? I have been meaning raw Power all thread long I must have kept adding in the knockout part :P ....Shavers did not likely have Tua's knockout power due to a lack of accuracy and timing imo...Just like he didn't have Tyson's knockout power...and obviously, he hit much harder than Tyson, same goes for George....Neither cared about accuracy and timing, all they had to do was land to get a good payday.

Huh? I would consider KO power and Raw Power as one and the same really and I don't see how you can isolate one from the other, or why. At any rate, if you were to consider raw power a separate category, then the only way you could really measure it with any degree of accuracy would be to use a PSI punch machine. It would be next to impossible to determine it from watching a fight unless the guy was dislocating shoulder bones and lifting his opponents into the air with body shots or something. Anyway, I disagree with Shavers being inaccurate. He could land his right and his uppercut with a fair degree of accuracy, enough to catch his opponents in the sweet spots time and again. Even Foreman wasn't that inaccurate, though his slow and lumbering way of throwing punches tended to give that impression. Tua's timing, on the other hand, wasn't amazing, or rather he had a set rhythm of throwing punches that meant you more or less knew what was coming and when. But I doubt you'd find a greater display of pure power (raw power if you will) than in the Moorer or Ruiz fights.

3. Rahman was absolutely a bum in comparison to the fighters we are discussing. The bolded statement is exactly what it is, he did not have punching power that compared with the likes of Tyson, Ruddock, Bruno, Wlad etc...much less Tua, Foreman, Shavers, Marciano. He ******, and was lazy in the gym...

Rahman did suck and he was lazy in the gym, but he was also an extremely physically strong man with a killer right hand which was well known long before the first Lennox fight. The guy might not have had the power of a Tua or a Tyson but to call him a light hitter is quite, uh, silly.

4. True, and here is your best argument. Tua ruined Moorers world, not by hitting him on the chin, but to the freaking body and forehead in 20 seconds! Young George hits a world harder than Old, but that was just crazy. George only landed the two solid right hands in round 10, the other shots were all arm punches and partially blocked by Moorer, George slowly chopped him down to size.

Surely this invalidates the statement further above that Tua lacked Foreman's or Shavers' "raw power". He wasn't even that accurate in the Moorer fight, clubbing him in the body and on the side of the head when Moorer's gloves were up, and still knocked him unconscious. Foreman on the other hand was catching Moorer with some solid rights before he hit the sweet spot, and he did the same to Morrison, the difference being, of course, that Morrison withstood them.

5. Yeah I think that a jab was Tua's acid bath. I was surprised when Rahman was able to do so well against such a puncher, kind of a weird weakness in boxing, just a jab in general.

Yep, good jabs (and bodyshots) were always Tua's weakness, and one which he never really learnt to overcome. As I said before, Tua was a pretty limited fighter and not especially hard to figure out, the hard part of course being to avoid that killer left hook which he could throw with knockout power all night long.

6. Tyson had to hit Holmes many times flush, but somewhere everyone has missed that. Shavers just hit him once to get the same effect, that fight could well have been stopped today...They also fail to recognize that Holmes was approaching 40 years old, and had been a professional for near 15 years...

Whether Holmes was prime or past prime is irrelevant in this case where we're simply talking about who he claims hit the harder. Holmes thinks it was Shavers, but it was Tyson who knocked him out, not knocked down, knocked out. And it was a big right, with no combination behind it, that first floored Holmes and led to the KO, in other words exactly the same punch as Shavers landed. Prior to that Homles was effectively tying him up and stifling his best work to the head, so I'm not sure where you're getting the "he had to hit him many times flush" bit from.

8. That old man Briggs took a awesome beating from Vitali, many flush shots which put him on the seat of his pants against Lewis in his prime, and was still never staggered and never did show any sign of getting ready to be KOed...He said that Vitali hit him hardest while he had a concussion, he said it in the ring....So no, I would take that statement with a bucket of salt, then give the man 3 months to recuperate and have him confirm...Fighters/people in general say crazy **** when their brain is bleeding

If Briggs was never staggered or near to getting KOed against Vitali then why are his words any less trustworthy than a fighter who actually was staggered and KOed in their fight in Holmes? What would 3 months do to change his mind? And wouldn't the later recollection be open to distortion? Surely isn't the memory of an event clearest near to the time it occurred?

But of course that's kinda my point. How trustworthy are the words of a boxer, any boxer, let alone those who've just been in the ring with a hard puncher and sustained injuries to the head serious enough to knock them down and out or at the very least give them concussion? I'd say not very. But you're free to believe or disbelieve them as you see fit. Just be consistent about it is all.

9. Nay sir, John Ruiz was a big nothing, a stiff waiting for a good fighter to beat his ass. Tua did it, Valuev did it(LOL), 40 year old Holyfield did it, and Jones did it his first fight at heavyweight...

Ruiz was a former world champion, beat Holyfield, Rahman, McCline, Golota, Tucker and should have beaten Valuev, if you bothered to watch that fight. He had a solid resume and was a solid (if extremely boring) fighter. As for Jones, well, Jones was a phenom. But even he didn't nearly knock him out like Conn did to Louis...

[XionComrade]

Is there any confirmation that he did it with one punch? Shavers hit Smith with quite a bit before he got the TKO, including some illegal punches where Smith was crouched down in a corner stuck between the ring ropes, and therefore unable to roll with the punches, and a couple more where he was holding Smith's head with one glove and uppercutting him with the other. Unlike the Tyson fight there was no one clear punch that could be said to have done the majority of the damage.


Huh? I would consider KO power and Raw Power as one and the same really and I don't really see how you can isolate one from the other, or why. At any rate, if you were to consider raw power a separate category, then the only way you could really measure it with any degree of accuracy would be to use a PSI punch machine. It would be next to impossible to determine it from watching a fight unless the guy was dislocating shoulder bones and lifting his opponents into the air with body shots or something.


Surely this invalidates the statement further above that Tua lacked Foreman's or Shavers' "raw power". He wasn't even that accurate in the Moorer fight, clubbing him in the body and on the side of the head when Moorer's gloves were up, and still knocked him unconscious. Foreman on the other hand was catching Moorer with some solid rights before he hit the sweet spot, and he did the same to Morrison, the difference being, of course, that Morrison withstood them.

Yep, good jabs (and bodyshots) were always Tua's weakness, and one which he never really learnt to overcome. As I said before, Tua was a pretty limited fighter and not especially hard to figure out, the hard part of course being to avoid that killer left hook which he could throw with knockout power all night long.

Whether Holmes was prime or past prime is irrelevant in this case where we're simply talking about who he claims hit the harder. Holmes thinks it was Shavers, but it was Tyson who knocked him out, not knocked down, knocked out. And it was a big right, with no combination behind it, that first floored Holmes and led to the KO, in other words exactly the same punch as Shavers landed. Prior to that Homles was effectively tying him up and stifling his best work to the head, so I'm not sure where you're getting the "he had to hit him many times flush" bit from.



If Briggs was never staggered or near to getting KOed against Vitali then why are his words any less trustworthy than a fighter who actually was staggered and KOed in their fight in Holmes? What would 3 months do to change his mind? And wouldn't the later recollection be open to distortion? Surely isn't the memory of an event clearest near to the time it occurred?

But of course that's kinda my point. How trustworthy are the words of a boxer, any boxer, let alone those who've just been in the ring with a hard puncher and sustained injuries to the head serious enough to knock them down and out or at the very least give them concussion? I'd say not very. But you're free to believe or disbelieve them as you see fit. Just be consistent about it is all.

1. Judging from the way Smith's head snapped back I would say with 99.9% certainty that one did all of the damage. A injury like that would be life threatening if he took another hay maker after it, so it is not likely it happened in the 1st, Shavers was to wild to land massively then.

2. Nay it is not the same. Different dynamics in punching power. IE Breaking someones bones takes a different sort of energy than scrambling their brains. Neither Foreman or Shavers had awesome KO technique, IE snapping the punches or placing them properly. They just followed through with it like a sledge hammer would. Also have to take into account the skill level of Foreman and Shavers considering punching, it was not ATG spectacular. Sort of remind me of Marciano, not necessarily looking to hit the button and win the fight, just looking to destroy everything they touch.

3. I know, but noone ever thinks to use such things, and when they do it is idiots like the guys at fight science who rig it up wrong and are horrifically biased...I think not knowing 100% is what makes these discussions fun, grumpy as I can sound, this is a blast! I almost was able to get ahold of Shavers on the heavybag. The heavybag is where it is shown. That is where RAW power is demonstrated. You don't have to worry about getting countered, all you do is hit it, hit it as hard as you can, that is where punching power is made, that is where it is best demonstrated. The video was apparently on ITN but they ask 400 dollars for it, ****ing ridiculous. Earnie has a facebook, maybe some day he will show some footage with enough bugging. Until then, the most impressive display I have ever seen is Foreman, then Liston a very very close second. Tua could bend the bag as well!

4. I know Bert Sugar is with me, that the only man that can compare with Shavers is Max Baer. Hear me out, Baer was a bum, he really was, after he killed Campbell early on he was crushed and very very rarely took the sport seriously. He would literally back off after getting in a good shot for fear of repeating that incident. He has a relative who has tape of him hitting the bag, I am trying to get it from them, from what I have heard it is just mind boggling power. Baer showed it for sure in the Louis fight, and he had a numb right arm to boot. He had broken his right hand, the money maker, in training and they drugged it before the fight with Novocaine, he still gave Louis a massive fight and almost knocked him right the hell out twice. Raw power, doesn't really get you anywhere, but it sure is fun to talk about.

5. Well I was being a ******* and saying that compared to the guys we are talking about, Rahman is a powder puff :P...and his punch really is. It is only above what is normal.

6. I always was impressed with Tua though. He always just seems to hit exactly where he means to ya know? I think that with his power, he hit opponents on the forehead for a reason. George just swung, and that's all their is to that...Their is your head, here goes my arm...If it made contact cool, if it didn't oh well....Foreman had a awesome jab though, easily one of the best.

7. Yeah I always thought Tua was kind of odd. I don't think that most any of the fighters he fought could have KOed him, he did get wild and taken down by Barrett and Rahman, but he could have continued just fine, anyone can get KOed by anyone if they go crazy in their. I always figured that with his beard he would be more of a pressure fighter, bulling in and throwing uppercuts and looping shots, but given that, he wasn't much for pressuring at all. Odd

8. I just re watched that fight for this lol. I just watch Tyson run in and tag Holmes, Flush right on the chin. That was even better than the blow that Shavers hit Holmes with, but Holmes just got up and said it didn't hurt me...it did. 3 more shots right to the temple and chin Holmes goes down again, still after all of that Larry looks much better than he did against Shavers...Flush right hand, good left, Flush right hand, another BIG right hand on the ropes, two more right on the button and finally Holmes drops. Holmes is back up under his own power, talking, within 20 seconds...He is not exactly knocked out.

See my point? Here Larry is approaching 40 years old. Well past his prime and hardest fights, has been a professional for around 15 years, and is coming off of a 2 year layoff...Shavers got him in his prime, caught him once, and he was completely out of it. Tyson hit him numerous times, a couple even more wide open than Shavers' blow, and Holmes was still fighting back very well...No comparisons to be made IMHO :P

Not to mention that Shavers' one shot made a crushing thud when it hit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM6qQ50SpPw

2:15 in

9. You said that Briggs had a concussion didn't you? That would make processing power very hard, especially when you are in very very intense pain from fighting a very talented fighter for 12 rounds....

I am saying that while these guys are still bruised and battered, especially if they have a concussion, how can they properly rate past fights? Give them time. It is not like their judgment will be skewed after their body heals and the damage to the brain wears off...I will keep betting that in the next few months Briggs will say Lewis hit alot harder than him, and Foreman maybe still yet harder...It isn't like Ali had a concussion when he said Shavers hit harder than Foreman, or Holyfield had a concussion when he said Foreman hit harder than Tyson


10. Holyfield was starting to degrade rapidly even after the Bowe fight. Heavyweight was not a natural weight for him, and he was likely jacked on roids. All of that stress on his heart caused it to fail after the first Bowe fight, he even flat lined in the ER...I think it has given out twice so far, not sure. He was past his best days when he fought Tyson, but since Holyfield has legitimate balls of steel, he whooped Tyson, who was also past his best. I don't think anyone would argue with me that Holyfield was very well past his prime in both Lewis fights either(as was Lewis), albeit he was still one tough mofo with tremendous skill. Just not the same as when he was fighting Holmes, Bowe, Douglas etc...

Still yet, Evander was approaching 40 when he fought Ruiz, only 2 or 3 years before having serious talk of having his license suspended for fear of his life. He beat John the first time, lost the second, and drew the third....

Ruiz lost to Valuev, a man that Holyfield beat when he was 48 years old. That is absolutely unforgivable(As was that **** decision that went to Valuev in the Holyfield fight), no reason to defend Ruiz...he was pretty disgraceful to the title.

[nomadman]

4. I know Bert Sugar is with me, that the only man that can compare with Shavers is Max Baer. Hear me out, Baer was a bum, he really was, after he killed Campbell early on he was crushed and very very rarely took the sport seriously. He would literally back off after getting in a good shot for fear of repeating that incident. He has a relative who has tape of him hitting the bag, I am trying to get it from them, from what I have heard it is just mind boggling power. Baer showed it for sure in the Louis fight, and he had a numb right arm to boot. He had broken his right hand, the money maker, in training and they drugged it before the fight with Novocaine, he still gave Louis a massive fight and almost knocked him right the hell out twice. Raw power, doesn't really get you anywhere, but it sure is fun to talk about.

Is there any footage of Baer fighting before Campbell, or even Baer fighting Campbell himself? I would be interested to compare the before and after because, from what I've seen of Baer on tape, his power was hugely overrated as well. Very crude, wild swings thrown with a telegraphed wind up, which he still needed to land about a dozen of just to get rid of Schmeling.

5. Well I was being a ******* and saying that compared to the guys we are talking about, Rahman is a powder puff :P...and his punch really is. It is only above what is normal.

Rahman is known for having a massive bench. Is this the raw power you're talking about? Because if it is then Rahman has it in spades.

6. I always was impressed with Tua though. He always just seems to hit exactly where he means to ya know? I think that with his power, he hit opponents on the forehead for a reason. George just swung, and that's all their is to that...Their is your head, here goes my arm...If it made contact cool, if it didn't oh well....Foreman had a awesome jab though, easily one of the best.

This is silly. No boxer, not even Foreman or Marciano, just wildly swung and hoped for the best. They might not have been as accurate, and perhaps this is where your raw power comes into it, but they still had defined targets they went for again and again. Yeah, if they missed no biggie, but isn't this the same for any boxer? If Wlad missed a right he doesn't just stop and say, "Oh woe is me, I've missed my punch, I might as well just give up now." No, he carried on fighting. Besides, I think you're definitely selling Shavers short regarding his accuracy. Watch his fights again and see how many times he nails fighters with his uppercut and short right hand. The guy could punch with surprising accuracy at times.

8. I just re watched that fight for this lol. I just watch Tyson run in and tag Holmes, Flush right on the chin. That was even better than the blow that Shavers hit Holmes with, but Holmes just got up and said it didn't hurt me...it did. 3 more shots right to the temple and chin Holmes goes down again, still after all of that Larry looks much better than he did against Shavers...Flush right hand, good left, Flush right hand, another BIG right hand on the ropes, two more right on the button and finally Holmes drops. Holmes is back up under his own power, talking, within 20 seconds...He is not exactly knocked out.

Holmes looked better after the Tyson fight than after the Shavers one? Come on now, this is as ludicrous as the Cooney Norton example. Holmes was laid out flat on the canvas after Tyson had done with him, he was at least able to get to his feet by the count of ten and go on to earn a UD vs Shavers. He was freaking knocked out by Tyson!!!

See my point? Here Larry is approaching 40 years old. Well past his prime and hardest fights, has been a professional for around 15 years, and is coming off of a 2 year layoff...Shavers got him in his prime, caught him once, and he was completely out of it. Tyson hit him numerous times, a couple even more wide open than Shavers' blow, and Holmes was still fighting back very well...No comparisons to be made IMHO :P

No, not really. We're not talking about would Holmes have won if he was in his prime, we're simply talking about the power of the punch that landed on him both times. No need to hypothesize. Just look at the two punches and decide. For me it's obvious. Shavers did catch him good, but if he was completely out of it then why the hell did he get up before the count of ten and go on to win the fight? Tyson caught him with the exact same punch and had the exact same effect, the difference being that Tyson was able to follow up and get Holmes out of there. How you can even think that Holmes was in better condition after the Tyson fight than after the Shavers one is mind-boggling. Might as well say Lennox was in a better state at the end of the first Rahman fight than he was against Vitali. It'd make about as much sense.

9. You said that Briggs had a concussion didn't you? That would make processing power very hard, especially when you are in very very intense pain from fighting a very talented fighter for 12 rounds....

Of course it would. But then most fighters suffer concussions when they've been on the receiving end of so many punches, and especially when they've been knocked down or out as Holmes was against Shavers and Tyson.

You don't seem to understand that I was being sarcastic regarding Briggs. Of course Briggs wasn't in a postition to process much of anything. I doubt many fighters are in that condition. In fact, unless you take zero punches to the head during a fight, you're unlikely to be 100% clear about anything.

I am saying that while these guys are still bruised and battered, especially if they have a concussion, how can they properly rate past fights? Give them time. It is not like their judgment will be skewed after their body heals and the damage to the brain wears off...I will keep betting that in the next few months Briggs will say Lewis hit alot harder than him, and Foreman maybe still yet harder...It isn't like Ali had a concussion when he said Shavers hit harder than Foreman, or Holyfield had a concussion when he said Foreman hit harder than Tyson

I really don't see what time is going to do to improve a person's memory of a fight. If your brain is that badly bruised then the sense impressions you receive at the time are gonna be skewed, no two ways about it. And that's not likely to change. It doesn't matter if you still have a concussion or not, if the memories were initially obtained whilst your brain was in an impaired state then the memories are not likely to be entirely reliable. Fighters have a hard time even remembering how a fight went down, round by round, how do you expect them to accurately assess something so nuanced as the difference in power between one big knockout puncher and another?

[XionComrade]

Is there any footage of Baer fighting before Campbell, or even Baer fighting Campbell himself? I would be interested to compare the before and after because, from what I've seen of Baer on tape, his power was hugely overrated as well. Very crude, wild swings thrown with a telegraphed wind up, which he still needed to land about a dozen of just to get rid of Schmeling.



Rahman is known for having a massive bench. Is this the raw power you're talking about? Because if it is then Rahman has it in spades.



This is silly. No boxer, not even Foreman or Marciano, just wildly swung and hoped for the best. They might not have been as accurate, and perhaps this is where your raw power comes into it, but they still had defined targets they went for again and again. Yeah, if they missed no biggie, but isn't this the same for any boxer? If Wlad missed a right he doesn't just stop and say, "Oh woe is me, I've missed my punch, I might as well just give up now." No, he carried on fighting. Besides, I think you're definitely selling Shavers short regarding his accuracy. Watch his fights again and see how many times he nails fighters with his uppercut and short right hand. The guy could punch with surprising accuracy at times.



Holmes looked better after the Tyson fight than after the Shavers one? Come on now, this is as ludicrous as the Cooney Norton example. Holmes was laid out flat on the canvas after Tyson had done with him, he was at least able to get to his feet by the count of ten and go on to earn a UD vs Shavers. He was freaking knocked out by Tyson!!!



No, not really. We're not talking about would Holmes have won if he was in his prime, we're simply talking about the power of the punch that landed on him both times. No need to hypothesize. Just look at the two punches and decide. For me it's obvious. Shavers did catch him good, but if he was completely out of it then why the hell did he get up before the count of ten and go on to win the fight? Tyson caught him with the exact same punch and had the exact same effect, the difference being that Tyson was able to follow up and get Holmes out of there. How you can even think that Holmes was in better condition after the Tyson fight than after the Shavers one is mind-boggling. Might as well say Lennox was in a better state at the end of the first Rahman fight than he was against Vitali. It'd make about as much sense.



Of course it would. But then most fighters suffer concussions when they've been on the receiving end of so many punches, and especially when they've been knocked down or out as Holmes was against Shavers and Tyson.

You don't seem to understand that I was being sarcastic regarding Briggs. Of course Briggs wasn't in a postition to process much of anything. I doubt many fighters are in that condition. In fact, unless you take zero punches to the head during a fight, you're unlikely to be 100% clear about anything.



I really don't see what time is going to do to improve a person's memory of a fight. If your brain is that badly bruised then the sense impressions you receive at the time are gonna be skewed, no two ways about it. And that's not likely to change. It doesn't matter if you still have a concussion or not, if the memories were initially obtained whilst your brain was in an impaired state then the memories are not likely to be entirely reliable. Fighters have a hard time even remembering how a fight went down, round by round, how do you expect them to accurately assess something so nuanced as the difference in power between one big knockout puncher and another?

1. Just hearsay on Baer. I know of someone that has footage of him on a 100lbs heavy bag, and from their description I can discern that he was awesome...Bert Sugar seemed to know more. He tore Frankie Campbells brain from the connective tissues in his skull in 4 rounds, particularly the 4th. That is all I need to know that he was just a freak of nature, that is the most morbid thing I have ever heard in a boxing ring. The fight with Louis his hands were broken but he still displayed awesome power, almost putting Louis out twice and lifting him off the canvas with a left to the body, needless to say and nonetheless, he was extremely powerful.

2. Nay, Rahman had very little raw punching power. The guy was a panzy in training(in comparison of course). The Raw power I am talking about can only be shown on a heavy bag(or similar thing) Punching power has nothing to do with weightlifting prowess and very little do do with the strength of your muscles in the way that lifting weights does, but is especially dependent on joints and bone structure which is mostly altered through intense training and helped along via genetics.

3. Not wild wild, but George threw punches out the window to say(Rocky didn't) Hence wild

4. Holmes was deffinently in better shape from Tyson's blows than Shavers' considering how many shots Tyson nailed him with before he was out. Shavers hit him one, twice would have been very dangerous. Tyson hit him what...7 or 8 times the same way? And Holmes was still up, the final 2 left hooks caught him and put him down, up and until then Holmes was fine and doing a good job staying awake....Pretty big difference even before you factor in that Holmes was well past his prime and coming off a 2 year layoff into a fight he planned to lose(It was just a big payday for the most part to him).

Same deal with the Cooney one, Shavers hits him one time with a uppercut and he doesn't have a prayer, Cooney hits him 10 times flush and he is still awake, Imagine if Shavers teed off with him in the corner and nailed him 10 times flush when one uppercut did the job.

5. Noone is going to be working right while they have a concussion. I have listened to some fighters who were KOed or been through a rough Championship bout walk announcers and the viewers through a fight from round one, recalling every significant moment. When you fight someone, you remember it, but not while your brain is swollen up and bleeding lol

The reason I keep calling for people to give Briggs a few months to recoup before asking him who hit him hardest is this...If I had my leg cut off 10 years ago, I would remember that pain well...that would suck. If I JUST now broke my arm, and you asked me which hurt worse, breaking my arm or getting my leg cut off, I would tell you breaking my arm hurt worse...Why? Because that pain is happening RIGHT NOW. Obviously getting my leg cut off hurt a world more, but the hell if I am going to remember that when I am all focused on my broken arm Now you ask me a few months after my arm is broken and the pain is gone which hurt worse, my mind is clear again and my memory is not going to be altered, I will tell you that my cut off leg hurt worse, and how much worse it hurt....same thing here....You said Briggs stated Vitali hit him hardest RIGHT after Vitali got done punching him in the face for 12 rounds, over and over and over, and still yet while he had a serious brain injury...he isn't going to be giving good judgments on the subject at that moment lol....Just the way it is...If you fight one guy 12 rounds, and fight another 12 rouds, you are going to know very very well how hard each of them well, you could write a book about it.

[etlux]

wlad had far more raw 1 punch power. you talking about a guy who's 250lbs raw muscle 6'6' against a midget 6 footer 210lbs. however shavers was far more explosive than slow methodical wlad

[Toe Injury]

wladimir

for example the left hook he knocked chambers out with

could see it coming from a mile away, didnt even land on his jaw hit him on the upper part of his head, still knocked out COLD

[nomadman]

1. Just hearsay on Baer. I know of someone that has footage of him on a 100lbs heavy bag, and from their description I can discern that he was awesome...Bert Sugar seemed to know more. He tore Frankie Campbells brain from the connective tissues in his skull in 4 rounds, particularly the 4th. That is all I need to know that he was just a freak of nature, that is the most morbid thing I have ever heard in a boxing ring. The fight with Louis his hands were broken but he still displayed awesome power, almost putting Louis out twice and lifting him off the canvas with a left to the body, needless to say and nonetheless, he was extremely powerful.

Then I'm afraid that's how I'm going to have to take it. Second-hand descriptions, especially ones regarding older fighters, tend to get extremely exaggerated in my experience. And when Bert Sugar gets in on the act... well, let's say all objectivity goes out the window. Still, I always prefer to judge with my own eyes, and if you can obtain the footage I'd love to see it. BTW, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot here or anything, I'm just curious, what was Campbell's weight at the time of the fight, and what size gloves were they wearing? From his photos and official height it seems like he was quite a small guy in comparison to Baer, and the short description on boxrec makes it out as if Baer hit him illegally once he was already KOed. With injuries like this, there's almost always more than one factor involved.

2. Nay, Rahman had very little raw punching power. The guy was a panzy in training(in comparison of course). The Raw power I am talking about can only be shown on a heavy bag(or similar thing) Punching power has nothing to do with weightlifting prowess and very little do do with the strength of your muscles in the way that lifting weights does, but is especially dependent on joints and bone structure which is mostly altered through intense training and helped along via genetics.

Everyone who's met Rahman in the flesh says that he's built like a tank, with massive hands and a very thick bone structure. He might not have been the greatest boxer (ahem) but I've never heard him described as a light hitter, and generally anyone he managed to hit got put down or put away including Lennox, Sanders and (unofficially) Tua. The guy sounds like the perfect candidate for this raw power stuff.

4. Holmes was deffinently in better shape from Tyson's blows than Shavers' considering how many shots Tyson nailed him with before he was out. Shavers hit him one, twice would have been very dangerous. Tyson hit him what...7 or 8 times the same way? And Holmes was still up, the final 2 left hooks caught him and put him down, up and until then Holmes was fine and doing a good job staying awake....Pretty big difference even before you factor in that Holmes was well past his prime and coming off a 2 year layoff into a fight he planned to lose(It was just a big payday for the most part to him).

I just don't see it. Holmes was laid out flat on the canvas when Tyson was finished with him, he ended the Shavers fight on his feet with his hands in the air. Or are you saying that he was in better shape after Tyson's first right landed? If so, I think that's debatable. Both guys knocked him down with one right hand. Both times he got to his feet before the count of ten. Difference is, Tyson was able to finish him off and Shavers wasn't. Was this a matter of Tyson being a better finisher than Shavers or Holmes being more out of it? I'd say a bit of both. As for whether Shavers would have KOed Holmes if he landed one more time, well, it's possible, but it's just as possible to say that Holmes would have weathered the storm and come back to KO a gassed out Shavers. Holmes had a great survival instinct, and it wouldn't be the first time fighters have survived a barrage of punches from Shavers and not been KOed.

Regarding the Tyson fight, Holmes wasn't at his peak, but he certainly didn't fight like it was a payday, it simply wasn't in his nature. And as for being past prime, he went on to fight at the top level for another ten years after that fight, including beating a prime Mercer, and taking a prime McCall and Evander to decisions. Really phenomenal when you think about it, and one of the reasons why the whole "Holmes was past prime vs Tyson" line really gets on my nerves. Tyson should get full credit for that win.

Same deal with the Cooney one, Shavers hits him one time with a uppercut and he doesn't have a prayer, Cooney hits him 10 times flush and he is still awake, Imagine if Shavers teed off with him in the corner and nailed him 10 times flush when one uppercut did the job.

No offence, Xion, but I feel like I'm describing things to a blind man here. Shavers knocked Norton down with an uppercut and the referee waves off the fight. A moment later Norton is on his feet, unassisted, and talking to his corner. Against Cooney he was completely knocked out. Don't be fooled by the fact that his eyes are still open, he was out of it man. When you don't move, but lie slumped in your corner staring vacantly at the ring lights then it should be a fairly big clue that you're not in the best of physical shape. But why am I even writing this? It's all on the videos.

BTW, Cooney knocked Norton out with more or less the first clean punch he landed. The rest were just icing leather on the PD cake. Shavers landed a hell of a lot more than just one uppercut before he got the TKO. There's really no comparison in the brutality of the two stoppages.

The reason I keep calling for people to give Briggs a few months to recoup before asking him who hit him hardest is this...If I had my leg cut off 10 years ago, I would remember that pain well...that would suck. If I JUST now broke my arm, and you asked me which hurt worse, breaking my arm or getting my leg cut off, I would tell you breaking my arm hurt worse...Why? Because that pain is happening RIGHT NOW. Obviously getting my leg cut off hurt a world more, but the hell if I am going to remember that when I am all focused on my broken arm Now you ask me a few months after my arm is broken and the pain is gone which hurt worse, my mind is clear again and my memory is not going to be altered, I will tell you that my cut off leg hurt worse, and how much worse it hurt....same thing here....You said Briggs stated Vitali hit him hardest RIGHT after Vitali got done punching him in the face for 12 rounds, over and over and over, and still yet while he had a serious brain injury...he isn't going to be giving good judgments on the subject at that moment lol....Just the way it is...If you fight one guy 12 rounds, and fight another 12 rouds, you are going to know very very well how hard each of them well, you could write a book about it.

Your example isn't entirely apt, since it doesn't involve an injury to the brain, and there's a much greater difference between losing a limb and breaking one. We're discussing a much more subtle difference here, the difference between one guy who can knock you out versus another guy who can knock you out, and the very fact that they can do so calls into question your ability to register the event with total accuracy.

Just for the record, I don't believe Briggs. I think Lennox hit him hardest for the pretty simple reason that he knocked him out and Foreman and Vitali didn't. Sometimes it can be as simple as that.