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Ain't Shannon Briggs the guy with most 1st round KO's?
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There are plenty of knockouts at HW more sickening than that one: Lennox Rahman II, Bruno Coetzee, Tyson Holmes, Ruddock Dokes, and pretty much any Tua fight. As for injuries, well, Tyson broke several vertebrae in Golota's neck as well as causing several other injuries, including a fractured left cheekbone and a concussion. That can legitimately be said to have been caused by a single right hand, the one that caught Golota flush on the front of the face, snapped his head back and knocked him down in the first, whereas Shavers hit Smith with a barrage of blows before getting the TKO, including several shots behind the head, a few shots when Smith was crouching down in the corner and numerous hold and hits. Obviously Shavers hit Smith pretty damn hard to cause those injuries in the first place, but those injuries alone do not emphatically legitimise Shavers as the hardest hitter in HW history.Hi all
Of course my sorry butt would be here...to argue Shavers' title...
Howard Smith was heavily favored to KO Shavers and just overall dominate him. Shavers broke two vertebrae in his neck with a single right hand, effectively retiring Smith.
Good luck finding a more sickening KO than that one
Here's the link to Golota's injuries:
You think Norton was in a better shape after the Cooney fight than after the Shavers fight?? For God's sake, he was slumped drooling in a corner and looking dazedly at the stars once Cooney had finished with him. He was at least able to get to his feet after the Shavers knockdown. By the way, you can't really say that Norton was prime against Shavers but past-prime against Cooney when they fought so shortly after with Norton coming off a win against Cobb. Not saying it's not possible, just that there's not enough evidence of it to say for certain. Personally, I'd say he was a little past prime for both Cooney and Shavers.
Once again a large bulk of any pro-Shavers argument comes down to what other fighters have said about his power, and not what he actually did in the ring. Why is this? Doesn't Shavers possess an impressive enough body of KOs for his power to be undisputably self-evident? Tua certainly does. You don't find any jazzy comments about his power from former opponents, yet many boxing fans rate him highly based solely on the sickening effects his punches had on his victims. Speaking of victims, you might also notice an interesting trend among those fighters mentioned above... they all beat Shavers!!! And more than a few of them were knocked down by him en route to doing so. Doesn't it defy logic that fighters who've beaten someone and, in many cases, went on to be stopped by other opponents, might say that the fighter who didn't KO them, despite being given the opportunity to do so, hit them the hardest? Not really if you take into account the nature of a heavy blow to the head which screws with your senses, scrambles your brains and affects your short term memory, the extent of this latter largely being determined by the power of the punch.
Have you ever boxed before? The reason I ask is that if you've ever sustained a heavy punch to the head, one powerful enough to knock you down at the very least, the immediate reaction isn't "Ouch, that hurt!" but rather discombobulation and an inability to really register much of anything. And unless you sustain some surface injuries to your face in the process, you're unlikely to remember many of the effects of the punch at all. I've been knocked down by guys before that later I could have sworn didn't hit me that hard, and I've fought guys who didn't whom I swore were stoving my head in at the time. Who hit harder? My mind tells me the latter, logic tells me the former. And this is purely at an amateur level where the divergence in talent and punching power is vast. What about at the top end of the sport where the difference between two fighters' punching power is miniscule? How is anyone supposed to know who hit them the hardest when every shot they take is scrambling their brains and rendering them one step closer to total unconsciousness? They can't, not with any degree of accuracy, which is why I try not to put too much stock into what one fighter says about another even when they're overwhelmingly positive as they are regarding Shavers.
All of the fighters mentioned above might very well be telling what they see as the truth when they talk about Shavers, and I'm certainly not going to call them liars, but I will also call their words into question if they don't square up to the reality. Lest you think I'm singling out Shavers, let's take another example: Holyfield. Holyfield said Foreman hit him harder than anyone else, despite not being knocked down and stopped by him as he was by Bowe or nearly knocked out by Cooper. Briggs also said Foreman hit him harder than Lewis, despite, once again, not being knocked down by him and being stopped by Lewis. (this was before his Vitali comments by the way which even I, as a Vitali fan, find ludicrous.) And Mercer said Morrison hit him harder than Wlad. He was stopped by Wlad, he himself stopped Morrison. Once more, I'm not saying these fighters are lying, but it's hard to believe them when their words so clearly don't square up with the actual footage of their fights. If John Ruiz were to come out tomorrow and say that David Haye hit him harder than any fighter had done before would you believe him? He'd certainly have good reason for saying so, given the horrible and painful injuries he sustained in the Haye fight (busted eardrum, broken jaw, broken nose) and maybe, in his mind, what he said would be true, but then he didn't have much of an opportunity to register much of anything in the Tua fight. Neither did Holmes in the Tyson fight.
Paradoxically the ref might actually be in the best position to judge the power of a punch, being as close as it's possible to be to the blow without suffering any of its effects, and witnessing first hand the subtle after-effects on the fighter that are lost to video footage (dilated pupils, drooling, slurred speech, etc). But even he's not infallible.
Shavers was clearly a very hard puncher with an impressive body of KOs, but his status as the hardest puncher ever is too heavily based on fighter quotes and hyperbole for my liking.Comment
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Perhaps, but what if he sticks to his opinion? Do we just disregard it because it doesn't correspond to what we want to believe, or what is shown on tape, and if that's the case then isn't any fighter's word up for questioning?
I don't know if you know anything about Chambers but he's a pretty good defensive heavy with a proven chin against good punchers. Yes, he was a little fatigued (it was the twelth after all) but he wasn't rocked prior to the blow landing and was well on his way to dancing the clock down to the final bell. But you're right, the KO is similar to the Ruddock Dokes KO. Difference between the two, however, is that Wlad knocked Chambers unconscious with one punch! And it was through the guard as well!!!
Will be interesting to see your take on Wlad. I look forward to it.Last edited by nomadman; 10-25-2010, 07:19 AM.Comment
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True post this. I don't know why so many boxing fans go by what others tell them and not by the evidence of their own eyes. It'd clear up so many misconceptions. Take the ludicrous notion that Tyson wasn't a one punch knockout guy whereas Foreman and Shavers were. This is quite easily debunked by actually looking at their fights and noting the number of times Tyson knocked opponents down and out with one punch compared to Shavers and Foreman. Instead they cling to these poncy sounding quotes, "he hit me so hard he shook up my kinfolk in Africa," "his punch made me hear saxophone music in my head," "he knocked me out and woke me up again," (this last quote I've actually seen people taking literally, despite there being no medical evidence to support such a statement.)Last edited by nomadman; 10-27-2010, 09:53 AM.Comment
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I think Vitali hits harder than Wlad!!
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OK, calm down. Shavers did knock out some pretty cagey opponents that Tua and Foreman probably wouldn't have done, but that speaks more for his underrated offensive skills than it does for his boxing. Lewis, Wlad and Tyson would (and in fact did) knock out a lot of fighters that Shavers wouldn't be able to knock out by virtue of their being far better boxers than Shavers.
By the way, which opponents did Shavers ever knock cold?
Tyson certainly could punch at their level and demonstrated it time and time again. Why is it that whenever the name Tyson is brought out people seem to lose all sense of rationality? He's either the hardest puncher ever or he couldn't crack an egg. It's not only ridiculous, it's ridonkulous. Look at his knockouts. Then look at Shavers' and Foreman's. Try to filter out all the background noise, clear your mind of all hyperbole and popular opinion and just evaluate the fights as they are. It's tricky but possible, and you'll come to some pretty interesting conclusions.
Agreed. It's also a stylistic thing. Guys like Briggs come out bombing from the first round due to his crappy stamina. Couple that with his physical strength and the general low-level of his opponents and you end up with a lot of first round KOs. Doesn't necessarily demonstrate top level power any more than a high KO ratio or a bunch of fancy quotes does.
That's a question for another thread, and has been answered several times already. Just for the sake of answering it though: Byrd, Chambers, Chagaev, Brewster, Peter, Mercer, Rahman, Thompson, Brock were all stopped by him, many for the first time in their careers. I would also say that Ibragimov, a highly decorated amateur, was worthy of being called a top-level fighter, or at the very least, not a total bum (which is the default status most of Wlad's critics bestow upon the vast majority of his opponents).Comment
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1. Golota had a Herniated disk, Smith had two broken vertebrae, their is a huge difference here, Tyson's damage did not even involve the bones in Golota's neck.There are plenty of knockouts at HW more sickening than that one: Lennox Rahman II, Bruno Coetzee, Tyson Holmes, Ruddock Dokes, and pretty much any Tua fight. As for injuries, well, Tyson broke several vertebrae in Golota's neck as well as causing several other injuries, including a fractured left cheekbone and a concussion. That can legitimately be said to have been caused by a single right hand, the one that caught Golota flush on the front of the face, snapped his head back and knocked him down in the first, whereas Shavers hit Smith with a barrage of blows before getting the TKO, including several shots behind the head, a few shots when Smith was crouching down in the corner and numerous hold and hits. Obviously Shavers hit Smith pretty damn hard to cause those injuries in the first place, but those injuries alone do not emphatically legitimise Shavers as the hardest hitter in HW history.
Here's the link to Golota's injuries:
You think Norton was in a better shape after the Cooney fight than after the Shavers fight?? For God's sake, he was slumped drooling in a corner and looking dazedly at the stars once Cooney had finished with him. He was at least able to get to his feet after the Shavers knockdown. By the way, you can't really say that Norton was prime against Shavers but past-prime against Cooney when they fought so shortly after with Norton coming off a win against Cobb. Not saying it's not possible, just that there's not enough evidence of it to say for certain. Personally, I'd say he was a little past prime for both Cooney and Shavers.
Once again a large bulk of any pro-Shavers argument comes down to what other fighters have said about his power, and not what he actually did in the ring. Why is this? Doesn't Shavers possess an impressive enough body of KOs for his power to be undisputably self-evident? Tua certainly does. You don't find any jazzy comments about his power from former opponents, yet many boxing fans rate him highly based solely on the sickening effects his punches had on his victims. Speaking of victims, you might also notice an interesting trend among those fighters mentioned above... they all beat Shavers!!! And more than a few of them were knocked down by him en route to doing so. Doesn't it defy logic that fighters who've beaten someone and, in many cases, went on to be stopped by other opponents, might say that the fighter who didn't KO them, despite being given the opportunity to do so, hit them the hardest? Not really if you take into account the nature of a heavy blow to the head which screws with your senses, scrambles your brains and affects your short term memory, the extent of this latter largely being determined by the power of the punch.
Have you ever boxed before? The reason I ask is that if you've ever sustained a heavy punch to the head, one powerful enough to knock you down at the very least, the immediate reaction isn't "Ouch, that hurt!" but rather discombobulation and an inability to really register much of anything. And unless you sustain some surface injuries to your face in the process, you're unlikely to remember many of the effects of the punch at all. I've been knocked down by guys before that later I could have sworn didn't hit me that hard, and I've fought guys who didn't whom I swore were stoving my head in at the time. Who hit harder? My mind tells me the latter, logic tells me the former. And this is purely at an amateur level where the divergence in talent and punching power is vast. What about at the top end of the sport where the difference between two fighters' punching power is miniscule? How is anyone supposed to know who hit them the hardest when every shot they take is scrambling their brains and rendering them one step closer to total unconsciousness? They can't, not with any degree of accuracy, which is why I try not to put too much stock into what one fighter says about another even when they're overwhelmingly positive as they are regarding Shavers.
All of the fighters mentioned above might very well be telling what they see as the truth when they talk about Shavers, and I'm certainly not going to call them liars, but I will also call their words into question if they don't square up to the reality. Lest you think I'm singling out Shavers, let's take another example: Holyfield. Holyfield said Foreman hit him harder than anyone else, despite not being knocked down and stopped by him as he was by Bowe or nearly knocked out by Cooper. Briggs also said Foreman hit him harder than Lewis, despite, once again, not being knocked down by him and being stopped by Lewis. (this was before his Vitali comments by the way which even I, as a Vitali fan, find ludicrous.) And Mercer said Morrison hit him harder than Wlad. He was stopped by Wlad, he himself stopped Morrison. Once more, I'm not saying these fighters are lying, but it's hard to believe them when their words so clearly don't square up with the actual footage of their fights. If John Ruiz were to come out tomorrow and say that David Haye hit him harder than any fighter had done before would you believe him? He'd certainly have good reason for saying so, given the horrible and painful injuries he sustained in the Haye fight (busted eardrum, broken jaw, broken nose) and maybe, in his mind, what he said would be true, but then he didn't have much of an opportunity to register much of anything in the Tua fight. Neither did Holmes in the Tyson fight.
Paradoxically the ref might actually be in the best position to judge the power of a punch, being as close as it's possible to be to the blow without suffering any of its effects, and witnessing first hand the subtle after-effects on the fighter that are lost to video footage (dilated pupils, drooling, slurred speech, etc). But even he's not infallible.
Shavers was clearly a very hard puncher with an impressive body of KOs, but his status as the hardest puncher ever is too heavily based on fighter quotes and hyperbole for my liking.
2. SHow me some injuries Tua caused with his punches, I would guarantee he never broke anyone's neck...Tua was a pinpointed power puncher. Asking why Shavers doesn't have any impressive KOs over good opposition is the same as asking why Tua doesn't.
Tua's KO record is not as impressive as Shavers' yet he fought the "Glass Jawed" Lennox Lewis to 12 rounds(Glass Jawed being overstated obviously, I always thought Lewis had a average chin) and in a weaker division.
Whereas light hitting Hasim Rahman took Lewis with one punch. Tua could not even stun him.
Tua KOed Michael Moorer in 1 round(Which was a sickening KO), but Foreman took him with one punch that pushed his teeth through his lower lip.
John Ruiz was a stiff, period.
Lennox Lewis took out Rahman with one punch in MUCH more impressive fashion than Tua did, it took Tua one cheap shot after the bell and a barrage to get rid of Rahman in 11 rounds!
Did Lewis hit harder than Tua? I don't think so, never have. Tua lacked serious championship skill all around...Something Shavers could handle. The problem is that Shavers' best fights were losses by Lyle in a close call, Ali in a close fight(Something Tua would never have managed), and Holmes in another war(Yet again, another fighter that would be acid for Tua)
3. Boxing fans rate Mike Tyson's power highly also(Most say it is the hardest), but his power is nothing compared to Tua, Foreman, Shavers, Baer, even Sam Peter(lol)...Boxing fans usually know jack about raw power and how to see it.
4. Once again this...Old Holmes after a long layoff took Tyson 4 rounds and took many flush shots...How would he not be able to register whether or not Tyson hit harder than so and so? It sound like you are pulling that out of your ass, because I have been hit in the head by baseball bats, kicked in the face, and boxed. I remember the effect all of the blows had on me very vividly even if I was out. Holmes went near 24 rounds with Shavers, I think he knows what he is talking about...And you sir, clearly do not.
5. Of course Briggs said Vitali hit harder than anyone, it was merely what, hours after the fight? Obviously, Vitali was still hurting after 12 rounds of flush power shots(Which failed to KO Briggs, or even hurt him)
You have to look at the punches thrown and landed obviously, you are not doing this. Cooper hit Holyfield several times, and caught him with some great sneaky shots unawares square on the jaw, a very impressively timed shot with David Tua like accuracy. That was something George never did in his entire career...George never nailed anyone unawares on the jaw with a clever shot, as a matter of fact George just didn't use clever shots, didn't have to. George made Holyfield stop mid-fight several times by hitting him to the body and forehead...
I would say Morrison hit Mercer harder than Wlad to, by watching...because I know how to factor in variables. Mercer was so over the hill it was insane in the Wlad fight, he even looked physically ill compared to his prime. 42 year old Ray Mercer was stopped on his feet in that fight after 6 round of awesome flush right hands(That sounded like dynamite) and still yet it took several lefts right on the button to get Mercer to go down...he got up and took about 6 more shots, he was hardly hurt. If he took those blows from Morrison he would have been in the ER...Comment
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But he did also fracture his left cheekbone with more or less the same punch. And Golota was a much bigger, stockier man than Smith.
Since when is causing injuries the prime criterion for determining knock out power? Haye smashed Ruiz's face in over nine rounds but Ruiz was at no time knocked unconscious. Tua turned his lights out in 20 seconds. You gonna tell me Haye hits harder based on the injuries he caused Ruiz? GTFO. Tua didn't smash people's faces in, he just knocked them stone cold unconscious. Oh, and you wanna see Tua break (or look like he breaks) someone's neck? Check out the end of the Izon fight.
Man, I hope the bolded was overstated as well. Rahman in his prime hit like a truck. It was the one stand out thing about him. His win was also quite clearly a case of Lennox overlooking an opponent and paying the price. Against Tua he did no such thing and was never at any time caught absolutely flush with a Tua left hook.
Foreman took ten rounds to KO Moorer and was hitting him with flush right hands before the knockout. It wasn't just a freak out of the blue hailmary shot like people like to state but rather one right hand too many. Tua on the other hand killed Moorer dead with a short barage of left hooks against the ropes in the opening 30 seconds of the first round. Did he push his teeth through his lip? Don't know, but I doubt Moorer cared to ponder that particular nuance at the time. Foreman, by the way, also landed that same shot several times on Morrison (now that guy did have a glass jaw). I trust you know the outcome to that fight.
Prime Ruiz was never a stiff by the way, and tends to get grossly underrated because of his horribly uncrowdpleasing style. He was also an extremely cagey and durable opponent who fought some big hitters but was only ever stopped again over ten years later in his retirement fight and well past his prime. You can't diminsh that win for Tua.
As for Lewis Rahman/Tua Rahman. Sure Lewis took Rahman out more impressively, but that was partly due to his phenomenal jab and excellent boxing skills as well as the fact that Rahman was always been a sucker for an overhand right (both Oleg fights) of which Lewis posseses one of the best. That was not a case of who hit harder but of who had the skills to land their power shot the flusher.
Sorry, boxing fans? Er, isn't that what you and I are?
Yeah, yeah alright. As I said, I'm not calling Holmes a liar, but I find it hard to see how one fighter who knocks you down hits harder than one who knocks you out, with more or less the same punch. Your example is cute, but getting hit with baseball bats and getting punched with a boxing glove aren't quite the same thing, since one is far more likely to leave painful surface injuries than the other. Getting hit by one hard puncher and getting hit by another hard puncher is another matter, and I speak from personal (if limited) experience when I say it's far more difficult to differentiate the two. But you obviously beg to differ. That's cool. By the way, Briggs went a combined 29 rounds with Foreman, Lewis and Vitali, taking numerous flush right hands from Vitali for 12 of those rounds and sustaining a fractured cheekbone, a fractured orbital bone, and an almighty concussion in the process. Surely he's also in the perfect position to judge the relative power of all three fighters when he says Vit hit harder, right? Or are you going to insist that he, too, doesn't know what he's talking about? Um...
But his mind was still clear, or rather fresh, from the fight (it was minutes not hours by the way). Plus, he had just taken about a hundred flush right hands from Vitali, an excellent sample size from which to draw his conclusion! And they obviously hurt, given the fact that he was out on his feet about three times during the fight, got his face broken and had to be rushed to the hospital after collapsing in his dressing room. What sane man wouldn't believe the slurred, semi-coherent words of a bloodied and battered up 38 year old past prime boxer suffering from severe post-fight concussion? Or indeed any man that gets his head punched in for a living?
Whoa there pardner, that's all I've been doing in this thread. Though I suppose I could just as easily refer to a bunch of quotes (which I'll then proceed to dismiss if they don't pertain to the fighter I'm arguing in favour of).Last edited by nomadman; 10-26-2010, 08:11 AM.Comment
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You are kidding right? Vitali hit Briggs two hundred times with his right hook and for Ernie is just took ONE right to get you out of there, or brake something.
Shavers had a kick of a mule on his right hand and I haven't seen that kind of power since.Comment
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We're not arguing for Vitali here, but Wlad (though the argument has become sidetracked somewhat...)
As for Earnie, needless to say I disagree with your statement because it isn't true. Off the top of my head Lyle, Cobb, Ali, Holmes, Mercardo, and Tillis all not only survived a right hand from Earnie but went on to win the fight. This isn't taking into account the various fighters that withstood a barrage of rights from Earnie before going down like Tiger Williams. Ever seen anyone get up from a Tua knockdown and go on to win the fight?Comment
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