Harder Hitter

[nomadman]

wlad had far more raw 1 punch power. you talking about a guy who's 250lbs raw muscle 6'6' against a midget 6 footer 210lbs. however shavers was far more explosive than slow methodical wlad

Disagree. Wlad is far more explosive than Shavers, and a quicker puncher too. Where Shavers has the edge is that he always put full weight into his shots, really launched himself into them, like he was throwing a baseball. Wlad tends to hold back more often than not.

[XionComrade]

Then I'm afraid that's how I'm going to have to take it. Second-hand descriptions, especially ones regarding older fighters, tend to get extremely exaggerated in my experience. And when Bert Sugar gets in on the act... well, let's say all objectivity goes out the window. Still, I always prefer to judge with my own eyes, and if you can obtain the footage I'd love to see it. BTW, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot here or anything, I'm just curious, what was Campbell's weight at the time of the fight, and what size gloves were they wearing? From his photos and official height it seems like he was quite a small guy in comparison to Baer, and the short description on boxrec makes it out as if Baer hit him illegally once he was already KOed. With injuries like this, there's almost always more than one factor involved.



Everyone who's met Rahman in the flesh says that he's built like a tank, with massive hands and a very thick bone structure. He might not have been the greatest boxer (ahem) but I've never heard him described as a light hitter, and generally anyone he managed to hit got put down or put away including Lennox, Sanders and (unofficially) Tua. The guy sounds like the perfect candidate for this raw power stuff.



I just don't see it. Holmes was laid out flat on the canvas when Tyson was finished with him, he ended the Shavers fight on his feet with his hands in the air. Or are you saying that he was in better shape after Tyson's first right landed? If so, I think that's debatable. Both guys knocked him down with one right hand. Both times he got to his feet before the count of ten. Difference is, Tyson was able to finish him off and Shavers wasn't. Was this a matter of Tyson being a better finisher than Shavers or Holmes being more out of it? I'd say a bit of both. As for whether Shavers would have KOed Holmes if he landed one more time, well, it's possible, but it's just as possible to say that Holmes would have weathered the storm and come back to KO a gassed out Shavers. Holmes had a great survival instinct, and it wouldn't be the first time fighters have survived a barrage of punches from Shavers and not been KOed.

Regarding the Tyson fight, Holmes wasn't at his peak, but he certainly didn't fight like it was a payday, it simply wasn't in his nature. And as for being past prime, he went on to fight at the top level for another ten years after that fight, including beating a prime Mercer, and taking a prime McCall and Evander to decisions. Really phenomenal when you think about it, and one of the reasons why the whole "Holmes was past prime vs Tyson" line really gets on my nerves. Tyson should get full credit for that win.



No offence, Xion, but I feel like I'm describing things to a blind man here. Shavers knocked Norton down with an uppercut and the referee waves off the fight. A moment later Norton is on his feet, unassisted, and talking to his corner. Against Cooney he was completely knocked out. Don't be fooled by the fact that his eyes are still open, he was out of it man. When you don't move, but lie slumped in your corner staring vacantly at the ring lights then it should be a fairly big clue that you're not in the best of physical shape. But why am I even writing this? It's all on the videos.

BTW, Cooney knocked Norton out with more or less the first clean punch he landed. The rest were just icing leather on the PD cake. Shavers landed a hell of a lot more than just one uppercut before he got the TKO. There's really no comparison in the brutality of the two stoppages.



Your example isn't entirely apt, since it doesn't involve an injury to the brain, and there's a much greater difference between losing a limb and breaking one. We're discussing a much more subtle difference here, the difference between one guy who can knock you out versus another guy who can knock you out, and the very fact that they can do so calls into question your ability to register the event with total accuracy.

Just for the record, I don't believe Briggs. I think Lennox hit him hardest for the pretty simple reason that he knocked him out and Foreman and Vitali didn't. Sometimes it can be as simple as that.

1. Yeah, kind of sad. The same thing goes for Ray Robinson, his best performances were never filmed...Baer had a incredible knockout streak before the Campbell fight but none of those fights are even talked about. He has a relative on youtube that posts videos and stays fairly active, like I said I am trying to get video of Baer on the heavybag, but until then the only thing that hints to his power is first and second hand accounts.

2. Oh yes, Rahman has a monstrous body, and unreal strength. But he is a light hitter, in comparison to the ATG top heavyweight punchers, which is what we are discussing. Rahman just didn't hit that hard, he was strong, but just didn't have awesome power. Watch him hit the heavy bag, or just train in general, and it is evident. He was lazy and slower than molasses, which is probably what kept him from being a devastating puncher, to slow.

3. I am saying that Holmes was flat on the canvas after 8 or so flush Tyson shots, perfect right hands square on the button of Holmes. Shavers crushed him with one shot, their was no follow up or shot that had him in trouble from before, just one big pop and Holmes' eyes are glassed over and he survives the round out on his feet....lets put it this way, so Tyson got in 8 or so haymakers, imagine if Shavers got in 8...Holmes would likely be dead...Or even imagine if Earnie just got in one more haymaker? Can you see my point now? Holmes would have been completely out after two of those shots.

Shavers couldn't finish Holmes because he, once again, went crazy and threw shots out the window...the same way Foreman did against Chuvalo, none of those shots were good or were going to finish someone like Holmes, they just didn't land...Whereas Tyson went on to land, and land, and land before Holmes was finally out. Watch Holmes go down that first time against Tyson, he is still awake but dazed and just trips over, fully aware of his surroundings and ready to go. Watch Shavers land on him, he just falls lifelessly to the canvas, staggers to his feet dazed, and barely makes it out as Earnie just starts winging out the window. One more shot like that and it would have been over, noone would disagree with me on that....Tyson landed another one like that, and Holmes just kept going, even after the second knockdown...

4. But it is true, Holmes was past his best. Sort of the same deal between Holyfield - Tyson...Holyfield was starting to degrade by then, most people could see it. Anyone that has seen Holmes in his prime and seen any of his comeback fights knows...Larry was well past it, just like Ali was well past it against Frazier the third time and Shavers...Prime Holmes would have moved the entire 12(15) rounds against Tyson and had a much more intense work rate...

5. I must of crapped myself posting that paragraph, let me make it better lol...Cooney hit Norton 6 freaking times after he had gone down in the corner flush on the chin with his best shots. It was savage, it was uncalled for, it was dangerous. That is what it looks like when people die in the ring. Earnie hit him once with the big uppercut and Norton was slammed to the canvas, . yes it took several body shots and rolled shots to get Norton down the first time and dazed, but that uppercut is what did it. One uppercut. Norton went down in the Cooney fight under his own consciousness, he was either going to sit the fight out or take a knee, but got hung up and just beat down.

6. The example wasn't supposed to have anything to do with a brain injury. It was just an example of injuries in general. I will always remember the injury I have as being worse than the one I had, because I am experiencing it right now, even though the one I HAD was a much more severe pain...Briggs had a concussion, had gotten his old slow ass beaten for 12 rounds by Vitali and although his speech sounded excellent, you have to think that the pain of Vitali's 12 round high volume beat down was fresher on his mind than the fights years before with Foreman and Lewis...lol. He may have even just been caught up in the moment, Vitali is a class act regardless. And yes, Lennox Lewis was nothing short of awesome!

[XionComrade]

Disagree. Wlad is far more explosive than Shavers, and a quicker puncher too. Where Shavers has the edge is that he always put full weight into his shots, really launched himself into them, like he was throwing a baseball. Wlad tends to hold back more often than not.

Agree, Wlad is a awesome boxer puncher. He and Lennox are the only two I can even think of at heavyweight that are at that level! Middleweight had the best ones though IMO, Mcclellan and Hearns for example. Wlad is not as coordinated with his punching as Shavers is, probably to keep himself from becoming to wide open.

Shavers is built better for the one big punch though, wider hips which allow you to generate more power from your legs, and wider shoulders for more power from the torso. Not to mention that he probably has a longer reach than Wlad(Foreman and Liston both did), but I cannot confirm this as Shaver's reach was never actually measured apparently. His shots have to travel a very long distance before they land, but that is just the way it goes I guess. Not to mention his short height vs other opponents, which helps tremendously in putting more "Leg" behind the shots.

It seems to me that most of a big power punch is generated from your butt and Lats(Wings, muscles on your back that run down your sides). Lats work in combination with your abdominal muscles, but that is all anatomy. Wlad has huuuuge Lats and throws such short punches! Shavers has still yet even bigger lats, like a body builders, so did Liston.

That makes me think that former football players like Abe Simon and Jack O'Halloran, who had massive latterals also, also had devastating, but awkward, punching power. That is backed up a little by Simon KOing Walcott in 6 rounds!

P.S. <<< YOU SEE DIS FIST, DAYVID HAYE? AUDLEY'S GONNA RAM IT INTO YOUR STOMACH, AND BREAK YOUR GODDAMNED SPIIINNNEEE!!!

Nice Arnold quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nz9-NWdsis