Comments Thread For: Further Review, Margarito Unworthy of a Spotlight Return

[Dave Rado]

There exist distinctions among: Murder, Frustrated Murder, Attempted Murder, Homicide ...There are even distinctions in Murder, i.e., 1st degree, 2nd degree, etc. Consequently, penalties have been made to, in the words of those in the legal circles, "fit the crime."

Those folks responsible for such distinctions all throughout human history as well as those who calibrated the system of penalties...I wonder...did they enlist the wisdom of their wives?

And then there's that policy that offers convicts who have served their time a "second chance". Some of those who have benefited from society's generosity became big names in pro boxing, e.g., Liston, Hopkins, et al. Were they forgiven because their crimes were committed outside boxing while Margarito must not be because his "criminal" act was done inside the sport? Is damage to the "integrity" of the sport of greater weight than damage to society at large? Is the life of a fighter atop the ring facing an opponent with illegal pads of greater value than the lives of defenseless folks in an armed robbery incident?

Just wondering...

Just wondering too: if boxing can be demonstratively generous in accommodating former felons who have done time, why must it be such a miser when it comes to giving one of its own a second chance?

Hopkins and Liston didn't commit offences that usually lead to life imprisonment and then get off with a 1 year jail sentence. Margarito committed an offence that usually leads to a lifetime ban but has got off with a one year ban. Plus he's never shown any remorse for what he did, or even admitted any responsibility for it. Plus the reason he got off with one year wasn't that the original commission decided to give him his licence back, but it was due to Arum using his influence to get him a licence from a different commission, which smells of corruption.

[WESS]

Based on common sense, it's logical that PEDs should get a far worse punishment than low blows or rabbit punches or hitting on the break (all of which could also potentially cause serious harm or even death, but based on common sense, the likelihood of their doing so is far lower than in the case of PEDs); but it's equally logical for the same reason that PEDs should get a far lesser punishment than plaster, which is far more likely to directly cause serious harm.

I agree with you both but ultimately agree on the highlighted part, as plaster is a weapon rather than a drug that doesn't "directly" effect the opponent.

Still both are wrong but on different levels. Which is basically what you just said.

[IMDAZED]

Based on common sense, it's logical that PEDs should get a far worse punishment than low blows or rabbit punches or hitting on the break (all of which could also potentially cause serious harm or even death, but based on common sense, the likelihood of their doing so is far lower than in the case of PEDs); but it's equally logical for the same reason that PEDs should get a far lesser punishment than plaster, which is far more likely to directly cause serious harm.

I agree with your first part but not the second. Low blows and rabbit punches occur in the ring. Coming into the fight with wrapped hands or steroids? I don't know how we discern the two.

[edgarg]

PLASTERITO deserves to die in the ring;i'm not joking because that was he wanna do to SHANE in illegal way...............GOD HAS CHOSEN MANNY TO PUT THIS MOUSE IN TO RETIREMENT!!!!

With all due respects, you sound more than a little NUTS. The verdict of the Commission was that the trainer admitted the responsibility -but not the intent- was found liable, and penalized. Margarito himself denied knowing, was found not liable, but penalized by a ONE year suspension of his licence.

When that year was UP, Common Justice demanded that he have his licence restored. This did not occur, and the various Commissions required him to dance around from one to the other, insisting that he apply, but knowing full well that they would REFUSE to restore his licence. This was outrageous crap.

As for the wraps themselves they were adjudged to have 2 components of Plaster of Paris plus oxygen, but the kind of plaster was NOT designated. There are MANY different kinds, used for different, mainly building jobs, and the strength is often decided by the ratio of components to each other. Very like a mix of concrete.

The components are ALSO USED in cosmetics, and even talcum powder, a substance which is commonly used in boxing.

My contention, difficult to disprove I say, is that the "illegal pads" were really LEGAL PADS which had become permeated with powder and sweat etc, making a pad which dried out harder than normal. Nowhere could I find, that the pads were rock hard, and tested against crumbling. Although I have read here that they were in fact actual bricks.....Ahem.

This crumble inclination of thin Plaster of Paris was amply proven by Nat Fleischer and a picked group of boxing experts who set out to see if Doc Kearns' story that he'd sprinkled Jack Dempsey's bandages with plaster, and then had him dip them in a bucket of water could have been true. This to show how Dempsey was able to destroy Jess Willard's facial bones basically in 1 round.

it was a dismal, complete failure, and the full account can be found in RING Magazine of somewhere in the 1950's. I believe I still have that edition.

Now, to join the mob, we have this crappy little article based on the writer's wife's feelings. Whilst no doubt an admirable lady, who has feelings, where is it shown that she is a boxing expert?

AND, it seems overlooked, that for every "expert" who says that Margarito KNEW {although the very examining Commission decided he didnt} There have been found many REAL experts and top fighters -including Freddy Roach and Calzaghe-who say that it could easily have happened even to THEM without knowing.....which is what Margarito has affirmed all the time, with NO deviation.

There are some very sick people around this BoxingScene site.

So, how come we, (and I certainly don't include ME) are such damned experts most of whom never had a glove on, WE can casually condemn this poor guy to everlasting hell and torment, whereas, if these suckers ever got even a parking ticket, they'd be screaming to the heavens how innocent they were...... PHOOOOOEY!

[edgarg]

Hopkins and Liston didn't commit offences that usually lead to life imprisonment and then get off with a 1 year jail sentence. Margarito committed an offence that usually leads to a lifetime ban but has got off with a one year ban. Plus he's never shown any remorse for what he did, or even admitted any responsibility for it. Plus the reason he got off with one year wasn't that the original commission decided to give him his licence back, but it was due to Arum using his influence to get him a licence from a different commission, which smells of corruption.

You're talking DREK, Margarito was banned for ONE year, but we are now well into the SECOND year and he was refused his renewed licence by the original Banning Commission. He lost millions of $ by NOT fighting all during the banning period, although he could have done, in other countries. THE DAMNED COMMISSION, found him not responsible, but liable all the same to a penalty. WHICH HE PAID.

He was penalised because he was there, and, therefore, being there, was involved..

[edgarg]

That's assuming Mosley didn't use PEDs the first time he fought Oscar. We really don't know. Furthermore, it's easy to compare how he looked on PEDs versus how he looked against Oscar the first time. A lot happened in the three years between. Mosley looked a lot worse--from the first Forrest fight up until he signed to fight Oscar. In fact, that's the only reason why Oscar took the fight. Mosley hadn't notched a victory in 2-3 years and seemed to have lost his confidence. Compared to his performances against Forrest - and even the brief one against Marquez - he looked very, very good against Oscar the second time.

I agree with your premise but the idea that PEDs could be used to seriously damage a fighter doesn't need hard evidence. Just common sense. You take a good fighter and you strengthen his attributes and he becomes a more dangerous fighter. You take a dangerous fighter and strengthen them and he becomes...I don't know? This is boxing we're talking about here.

There may be a little confusion about the two Mosley-Oscar fights. Mosley boxed brilliantly in the first one. Oscar did also, for the first 6 rounds, but Mosley was all over him after that. He deserved a solid UD, not a Split D.

In the second fight, Mosley was losing the fight up to the 6th or 7th rd. He was not boxing well at all, and if he was on steroids for this fight they did him no damned good at all.

He changed his tactics and began hitting Oscar solidly to the body. As I've written here before, I was actually sorry for Oscar in this part of the fight, because, even with his "patented" chest protector, he was really hurting, bending over more and more, crouching over more and more, and barely able to finish the fight. the body blows were sickening, but Oscar had built up a good enough lead so that Mosley only eked out a 115-113 X3 verdict to give him a narrow UD.

He only deserved a narrow UD, but in the first fight it should have been a clear UD about 116-112 at least. This is my opinion.

[IMDAZED]

There may be a little confusion about the two Mosley-Oscar fights. Mosley boxed brilliantly in the first one. Oscar did also, for the first 6 rounds, but Mosley was all over him after that. He deserved a solid UD, not a Split D.

In the second fight, Mosley was losing the fight up to the 6th or 7th rd. He was not boxing well at all, and if he was on steroids for this fight they did him no damned good at all.

He changed his tactics and began hitting Oscar solidly to the body. As I've written here before, I was actually sorry for Oscar in this part of the fight, because, even with his "patented" chest protector, he was really hurting, bending over more and more, crouching over more and more, and barely able to finish the fight. the body blows were sickening, but Oscar had built up a good enough lead so that Mosley only eked out a 115-113 X3 verdict to give him a narrow UD.

He only deserved a narrow UD, but in the first fight it should have been a clear UD about 116-112 at least. This is my opinion.

Ok. Nice post but has little to do with what I said.

[grayfist]

]Hopkins and Liston didn't commit offences that usually lead to life imprisonment and then get off with a 1 year jail sentence. Margarito committed an offence that usually leads to a lifetime ban[/B] but has got off with a one year ban. Plus he's never shown any remorse for what he did, or even admitted any responsibility for it. Plus the reason he got off with one year wasn't that the original commission decided to give him his licence back, but it was due to Arum using his influence to get him a licence from a different commission, which smells of corruption.

Exactly why I'm musing why an armed robbery felony that threatened lives of defenseless folks gets a year while a supposedly illegal pair of wraps gets, per the rules, a lifetime ban. lf not considered equal to a life term, a lifetime ban is pretty close to it in the eyes of someone who has devoted much of his adult life to the sport.

It seems to me that Margarito is between the devil and the deep blue sea when it comes to showing remorse. Doing so would tacitly admit guilt, not doing so has put him in the position he now is in in relation with the California commission. He chose the latter and continues to pay the price; California may and can insist to refuse him a license in that state for reasons that may not be confined to anything connected to the wraps and can include something about not having been licensed to spar or use gym facilities there.

As for the pieces of evidence upon which California's commissioners based their decision to suspend Margarito, another member of BoxingScene, edgarg, has a post on this thread containing details to which I cannot add. It seems that these evidence were insufficient to convict were they presented in a court of law.

Of course commissions are not bound by Rules of Evidence that are observed in court and the standard for the determination of guilt or innocence is not high. For instance, the commission clearly said that it cannot determine whether or not Margarito knew and yet it decided to suspend him based on that lack of determination. If he was not found guilty of knowing, what then is he guilty of? Why was he punished?

Another question can be raised as a result: If the commission cannot determine that Margarito knew, why should it demand "remorse" as prerequisite to its granting Margarito a license?

Oh, yes, there's that matter of sparring in California without a license. Of course.

Edit: Note:Hopkins was sentenced to 18 years, Liston started doing time in January 1950 then was released in October 1952 as a result of a citizens' petition signed by people who appreciated his boxing prowess gained inside the prison compound.

[Slip Stream]

"Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain..."

After watching this sham of a fight materialize it's clear that Arum's calculus is mindless Pacquiao fans, it couldn't be anything else. No one would have the temerity to put on a fight like this otherwise. But the other fascinating aspect to all of this is watching the justifications from fans for all of it. Dirty fighters, catch-weight titles, and an apathetic public that is too shallow to understand how this fight is besmirching the sport.

I applaud Mr. Fitzsimmon's realization, prompted not by his own conscience but by his wife's, but it's too little too late. The sham train has left the station and it's moving forward with the full impetus of greed, self-aggrandizement, and meaningless accolades. It'll keep chugging along the tracks fueled with ignorance and denial like it's headed toward somewhere besides the obvious cliff that's in front of it.

I can almost imagine the posts on this site when the fight ends inevitably as we all know it will. Sightless Paqcuiao fans will declare his win to be one for the record books, they'll launch further verbal tirades at Mayweather, and accuse him of being afraid. No one will sift through the rubble to determine what happened and why there wasn't a more forceful outcry against it. No, folks won't spend much time doing that when they have a convenient whipping boy in Mayweather to heap all of the ills of the sport on. No need to look at the man standing behind the curtain, who is most certainly full of sound and fury for a fight that signifies nothing.

In my way of thinking the fans don't deserve a mega fight, not when they are so earger to gobble up whatever slop Bob Arum decides to toss from his table. So I file this post under "cynical" and growing more so everyday.

SS

[GRUSTLER]

You can say the same about rabbit punches, head-butts, hitting on the break, and hitting after the bell. These get disqualification at worst, more often just a warning. Do you seriously think that PEDs and plaster should just get a warning in most cases, and disqualification at worst, because they're no more serious than a low blow or a rabbit punch, or hitting on the break, because they are all illegal, unfair and potentially harmful?

The idea that anything that is illegal and potentially harmful should be given the same punishment is just ridiculous. If that were applied to the legal system there would be literally millions of people on death row.

And there's no hard evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever died or even been hurt as a result of PEDs. In Mosley's case, he actually performed a lot better against DLH without the PEDs than with them.

How can you make a comparison like that? PED & Plaster is way
more dangerous than headbutts and whatever else you were
speaking about. To my recollection, some athletes who have
taken steroids and so forth have killed people too. I believe they
call it "roid rage" any kind of performance enhancement drugs
are dangerous and should not be taken lightly. Moslely in the
second fight looked stronge and fresh while Oscar was tired as
hell and at the time I didn't understand why. Imagine if Mosley
with his enhance strength hit a tired Oscar the wrong way very
very hard. It could have killed him. Mosley and Margarito both
should have shared the same faith. Athletes in other sports
have been stripped of all their achievements and put in jail and
that's a fact.