since floyd is now once again the linear ww world champion

[crold1]

that's not how boxing experts like cliff rold count it, it is based on number of divisions that they become champs, unlike yours that counted 147 2x. In your logic, then it is a yes.

Pac won titles in four divisions lineally; that is his record. If it's just the number of crowns won, it's probably (off the top of my head) Robinson at six (1 lineal Welter, Five Middle)

[Vladimir303]

HHmmm let's assume that that is correct.


If Margarito Hypothetically beat Mosley after beating Cotto. He would be the new Champion starting a new line given He's ranked number 1 and Cotto and Mosley were 2 and 3 plus the fact that Floyd was retired.


If Floyd returns at Welterweight where Marg is already the New lineal champion? Which line is valid if they never face each other and fight other opponents?

Floyd would still be the Lineal Champion because he never lost it. Because LINEAGE differs from Recognized Champ, Ring Magazine Champ, Undisputed Champ (WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO). Those things can be lost by every which way such as getting stripped of the title, vacating title etc,. Lineal per definition cannot be vacated. It can only be stopped if the Lineal guy never returns and takes the lineage with him.

Let me give you another example, I gave this example of lineage before:

Mosley > Forrest > Mayorga > Spinks > Judah > Baldomir > Mayweather


Mosley started a new lineage by beating Delahoya for the vacant WBC Title. Now who was the champ before Mosley? That would be Felix Trinidad.

He defeated Oscar Delahoya and took his lineage up to 154, and never returned to 147. Had he returned to 147 at any point, he would be the THE LINEAL CHAMP because nobody took it from him and lineal = Emeritus.

If Tito Trinidad returned to Welterweight in his next fight...Tito would be be the lineal champ, not Floyd. But that's not likely to happen.

[Spray_resistant]

He is not the lineal champion but in fact does have the strongest lineage at WW at this time and should have been considered to have won another title even though he didn't want it.

Put it this way, if he is staying in the sport no lineal title at WW can be claimed without a fight involving him unless he is inactive for too long or has no intent to fight at WW

[crold1]

Floyd would still be the Lineal Champion because he never lost it. Because LINEAGE differs from Recognized Champ, Ring Magazine Champ, Undisputed Champ (WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO). Those things can be lost by every which way such as getting stripped of the title, vacating title etc,. Lineal per definition cannot be vacated. It can only be stopped if the Lineal guy never returns and takes the lineage with him.

Let me give you another example, I gave this example of lineage before:

Mosley > Forrest > Mayorga > Spinks > Judah > Baldomir > Mayweather


Mosley started a new lineage by beating Delahoya for the vacant WBC Title. Now who was the champ before Mosley? That would be Felix Trinidad.

He defeated Oscar Delahoya and took his lineage up to 154, and never returned to 147. Had he returned to 147 at any point, he would be the THE LINEAL CHAMP because nobody took it from him and lineal = Emeritus.

If Tito Trinidad returned to Welterweight in his next fight...Tito would be be the lineal champ, not Floyd. But that's not likely to happen.

Not correct. If Margarito had beaten Mosley, he would have had a CLEAR claim to the title given it was vacant due to Floyd OPENLY vacating and retiring. Floyd would have had to beat Marg when he came back to reclaim (as Joe Gans had to reclaim from Battling Nelson after vacating, moving up, and the returning to Lightweight all in about a year). As it stands, that he left as champ and came back to beat the man who should have been seen at 1 (Mosley) was enough to pick up where he left off IMO.

[Vladimir303]

Not correct. If Margarito had beaten Mosley, he would have had a CLEAR claim to the title given it was vacant due to Floyd OPENLY vacating and retiring. Floyd would have had to beat Marg when he came back to reclaim (as Joe Gans had to reclaim from Battling Nelson after vacating, moving up, and the returning to Lightweight all in about a year). As it stands, that he left as champ and came back to beat the man who should have been seen at 1 (Mosley) was enough to pick up where he left off IMO.

That it not correct. You're talking about the old days, when the term Lineal wasn't even necessary. In those days, they only had one belt for each division. Nobody was talking about lineages, The Champ was the champ. That's when the foundation of a World Championship was at it's strongest, particularly The World Heavyweight Championship, which was known as the The Greatest Title in the World back then.

You almost had no obligation to defend your title at a timely manner or else face being stripped. Jack Dempsey held on to his heavyweight crown for what...2 years? Before defending it and losing it.

The term lineal is being used by hardcore, purist fans because of all the different categories of champions in current modern times (I.E. Title holders, Ring Magazine champ, Recognized champ, Undisputed Champ as in Unified etc,.)

Lineage by definition doesn't go away, it's just a technical term that doesn't mean anything because not many people are keeping track. You can say that Floyd has to beat so and so to regain the title and he does, BUT NOT his lineage.

Defintion for Lineage:

a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
b. Derivation.
2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.

In boxing terms, Floyd is the closest descendant of the lineage that stared with

Mosley > Forrest > Mayorga > Spinks > Judah > Baldomir.

[BennyST]

Floyd would still be the Lineal Champion because he never lost it. Because LINEAGE differs from Recognized Champ, Ring Magazine Champ, Undisputed Champ (WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO). Those things can be lost by every which way such as getting stripped of the title, vacating title etc,. Lineal per definition cannot be vacated. It can only be stopped if the Lineal guy never returns and takes the lineage with him.

Let me give you another example, I gave this example of lineage before:

Mosley > Forrest > Mayorga > Spinks > Judah > Baldomir > Mayweather


Mosley started a new lineage by beating Delahoya for the vacant WBC Title. Now who was the champ before Mosley? That would be Felix Trinidad.

He defeated Oscar Delahoya and took his lineage up to 154, and never returned to 147. Had he returned to 147 at any point, he would be the THE LINEAL CHAMP because nobody took it from him and lineal = Emeritus.

If Tito Trinidad returned to Welterweight in his next fight...Tito would be be the lineal champ, not Floyd. But that's not likely to happen.

No, I'm afraid that's not how it works actually. You don't take this lineal 'title' with you when you retire. You forfeit it completely.

When Ray Leonard retired after beating Hagler for the lineal 'title' it was up in the air and whoever was able to establish true dominance would then become the supposed lineal holder. If Leonard had come back after another six years he would not automatically be the lineal holder. It's not something that stays with you.

It's not some amazing blood legacy thing that is inside you and stays with you forever. If someone retires, the linear title disappears until someone can establish a true claim of dominance over the division at which point it starts with him.

Anyway, as Clegg mentioned, lineal is absolute BS now. People rant and rave about it but if you look at it closely it is no better than anything else. You can win the linear title any number of ways now, many of them easily.

[BennyST]

That it not correct. You're talking about the old days, when the terms Lineal wasn't even necessary. In those days, they only had one belt for each division.

You almost had no obligation to defend your title at a timely manner or else face being stripped. Jack Dempsey held on to his heavyweight crown for what...2 years? Before defending it and losing it.

The term lineal is being used by hardcore, purist fans because of all the different categories of champions in current modern times (I.E. Title holders, Ring Magazine champ, Recognized champ, Undisputed Champ as in Unified etc,.)

Lineage by definition doesn't go away, it's just a technical term that doesn't mean anything because not many people are keeping track. You can say that Floyd has to beat so and so to regain the title and he does, BUT NOT his lineage.

Defintion:

a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
b. Derivation.
2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.

In boxing terms, Floyd is the closest descendant of the lineage that stared with

Mosley > Forrest > Mayorga > Spinks > Judah > Baldomir.

In ancestral terms, you're completely correct. This is boxing though and it works differently. It's not about a blood line or family.

When you retire or stop fighting, it goes away. It does not stay with you.

[jpunieves]

what the fcuk?

really now... you retire and be considered as the champion? hahaha you got to be kidding me. eat your own ****

[Vegan101]

Gayweather is the lineal **** champion of the gay community.

[Vladimir303]

No, I'm afraid that's not how it works actually. You don't take this lineal 'title' with you when you retire. You forfeit it completely.

When Ray Leonard retired after beating Hagler for the lineal 'title' it was up in the air and whoever was able to establish true dominance would then become the supposed lineal holder. If Leonard had come back after another six years he would not automatically be the lineal holder. It's not something that stays with you.

It's not some amazing blood legacy thing that is inside you and stays with you forever. If someone retires, the linear title disappears until someone can establish a true claim of dominance over the division at which point it starts with him.

Anyway, as Clegg mentioned, lineal is absolute BS now. People rant and rave about it but if you look at it closely it is no better than anything else. You can win the linear title any number of ways now, many of them easily.

I disagree. If you had replace the term Linear with Recognized Champion or Ring Magazine Champ, or the True Champion if you will, then I AGREE WITH YOU, Leonard wouldn't automatically be The Champ of the division. He would have to earn it like everybody else and beat The current top Guy at that weight.

I agree that a new RECOGNIZED, or TRUE CHAMP would be the guy who established himself after Leonard left 160 and Sugar Ray would have to beat that guy to be Recognized as The Top guy of that division.

However in technical terms, Leonard would still be Linear champ. But as you said, Linear is all B.S and doesn't mean a thing. Zolte Erdei was the lineal champ for years it 175, avoiding all the established fighters (Tarver, Johnson, Hopkins, Jones) because he beat the guy who beat Michaelchewsi who beat Virgil Hill.