Removing race to help the Klitschko fans understand (HWD)

[knn]

But are you seriously questioning Ali's speed? I'd say there are certain things that go without saying, one of which being Ali was a very fast Heavyweight.

1. Ali in his later career ("The Lard of the Rings") was one of the slowest "ploddingestestes" champs I have ever seen. Now this thread is NOT about late Ali but early Ali. Thus I will ignore his later performance
2. Some of Ali's fights (black and white movies) have a slight fast forward. Ali appears faster than he is (slapstick effect). You have to watch the fights where 3 minute rounds are played within 3 minutes (and not within 2:30 or so).
3. Ali in his earlier career is fast. He is faster the lighter he is. Now the thread starter wanted to compare him to Eddie Chambers. But if Ali is sub-200 then you CAN NOT compare him to Chambers (who has to be always 200+). Compare him to David Haye or to RJJ. Suddenly Clay/Ali doesn't look that fast anymore.
4. Ali's speed is mainly wind making. This is proven by the fact that his KOratio is so miserable. It's like the famous Byrd-flurries. They are just that (except that Byrd has a 50% KOratio while Ali has a 30% comparable KOratio). Ali's speed and KOratio is typical for cruisers (or sub-cruisers) who moved up to 200+ heavyweight (Evan Fields, Toney, etc): They keep a bit of their speed but their KOratio sucks. Ali's speed as a full heavyweight (like Chambers) is far from impressive. His main asset at 200+ heavyweight was not his speed but his endurance.

[sweetpea87]

Good post all around.

[knn]

My point is that throughout history, the best Amerrican HW could step to any athlete in the world and be respected. .

But this is exactly the point: Throughout history there has never been such a heavy heavyweight division as nowadays. Thus you are comparing 175+ divisions with the current 200+ division. Let me repeat: The 200+ division is NOT a cruiser division for taller boys. It's a completely different division with its own laws. Just like wrestling differs from Sumo.

Sub-200 boxers HAVE TO BE ATHLETIC because speed kills. At 200+ boxing speed does not necessary kill. It's more and more important that you are protected against heavy+seldom hits instead of fast+frequent hits.

Everyone knows that sportsmen get better and better in each generation. Thus if heavyweights get less athletic then it's simply the next "evolutionary" step which simply adds the thing that is more important than athleticism: Protection.

It's a completely illegitimate statement that 200+ boxer have to be as athletic as sub-200 boxers. Ali himself disproves you. He himself was an overweight and look how long he survived.

[Vadrigar.]

Tommy Hearns NEVER fought anyone that was heavier than him by 4 pounds and he never fought anyone that was a 200lb HW, let alone a 247lbs Wlad K.
Oh, and The Hitman did not have such a great KO ratio either, 70% against 165 lbs guys doesn't bode well for him if he ever had to fight someone a solid 220-230 lbs. Weight is not everything but it does count for a lot, especially for all weights under 200. A good big man will always beat a good little man, no matter how much you want to believe in this mythical Ali figure coming in and knocking out both Klitschkos on the same night. There is a reason why they rule the HW division - size and skill. It's going to take another Lewis caliber opponent to take them both down and Lewis is a top 5 ATG, so I wouldn't hold my breath for one like him showing up anytime soon.

Just face the facts: kilit's would be journeymen in the 60'/70's era.

[dans]

I like this thread. The pictures are funny.

[Joeyzagz]

[*]Ali in his earlier career is fast. He is faster the lighter he is. Now the thread starter wanted to compare him to Eddie Chambers. But if Ali is sub-200 then you CAN NOT compare him to Chambers (who has to be always 200+). Compare him to David Haye or to RJJ. Suddenly Clay/Ali doesn't look that fast anymore.[/LIST]

LOL your entire argument is based on one picture of Ali at the beginning of the thread. I just chose one at random, but since you are so hung up on it I will use this one where I know for a fact he is at least 210, and looks as athletic as ever.



Now for Chambers 208 lb GUT....unbelievable!

[slickfox]

is it true what someone posted about you that you secretly love the klitsckos but are mad about haye and lennox not getting any props so you pretend to hate them?

is it true or not?

[Joeyzagz]

But this is exactly the point: Throughout history there has never been such a heavy heavyweight division as nowadays. Thus you are comparing 175+ divisions with the current 200+ division. Let me repeat: The 200+ division is NOT a cruiser division for taller boys. It's a completely different division with its own laws. Just like wrestling differs from Sumo.

Sub-200 boxers HAVE TO BE ATHLETIC because speed kills. At 200+ boxing speed does not necessary kill. It's more and more important that you are protected against heavy+seldom hits instead of fast+frequent hits.

Everyone knows that sportsmen get better and better in each generation. Thus if heavyweights get less athletic then it's simply the next "evolutionary" step which simply adds the thing that is more important than athleticism: Protection.

It's a completely illegitimate statement that 200+ boxer have to be as athletic as sub-200 boxers. Ali himself disproves you. He himself was an overweight and look how long he survived.

But the two guys Im comparing weigh nearly the same. For Eddie to survive at Heavyweight, he has to be quick and athletic as Ali was so it is an apt comparison...Im being nice by comparing the 70's guys to him, I could go the Holyfield route and Chambers would look even more like a chump....



And look who he is fighting? A guy as big as Wlad! Like I said, be glad Im not comparing Eddie to 80's 90's guys..

[knn]

LOL your entire argument is based on one picture of Ali at the beginning of the thread. I just chose one at random, but since you are so hung up on it I will use this one where I know for a fact he is at least 210, and looks as athletic as ever.

I never claimed Ali doesn't look athletic sometimes at 200+.

I claimed that chubby-ness is not a proof of division-suckness. And so far you repeat to post a comparison without proving that "chubby = bad".

Your claim is like "Chubby sumos are bad" without ever proving it. Compare the athleticism of the 60ies with the current CRUISERweight division (because this is the correct division to compare the advancement of boxing to) and suddenly the 60ies boxer look less athletic.

Moreover you post a pic of Ali vs Patterson (188lbs): This is EXACTLY THE REASON WHY ALI could allow himself to look athletic. Because nearly all of his opponents were former sub-cruisers or (former) cruisers (like Patterson).

Ali needed protection (fat) much less than Chambers needs it in our times.

[The_Demon]

the majority of Klitschkos fans are deluded idiots,they are blinded by skin colour and use this as an excuse as to why the media dont nuthug them when they beat yet another over-matched opponent