Removing race to help the Klitschko fans understand (HWD)

[knn]

Hes slower, 3 ins shorter, with a lower KO%, weaker chin, and inferior in every way possible. Ali was an athlete that could walk into any professional locker room and be respected on physique alone.

You make several mistakes there.

• FIRST: You claim that an athletic heavyweight is better than a chubby heavyweight. This is a completely unproven statement like "an athletic weight lifter is better than a chubby one".
  
  You have absolutely nothing to back it up. In fact it could very well be that a chubby heavyweight is the perfect heavyweight, thus all your athletic pictures would actually prove how bad the 70ies division was.
  
  Heavyweight is not the division for bigger cruiser boys. Heavyweight is a division in its own right with its own laws.

• SECOND: You compare Ali's KOratio (which includes sub-200-bums) with Chamber's KOratio which consists of 200+ opponents.
  
  In the entire 60ies Ali had only 8 fights where he and his opponents were 200+ lbs. The rest of the fights were Ali being sub-200 (= you cannot compare him to Chambers) or Ali's opponents being sub-200 (= you cannot compare their KOratio).
  
  60ies-Ali scored only 6(!) KOs in real heavyweight fights (both opponents 200+) of which 2 were against bums (London, Powell), 1 KO was against gun-wounded Cleveland Williams and 2 KOs were against Liston who possibly took a dive. HOWEVER let's simply count these 6 KOs as if they were good KOs indeed.
  
  In Ali's further career (70ies) he scored 5(!) more KOs within 12 rounds in real heavyweight fights. In other words: When you CORRECTLY compare Chamber's record and Ali's record (= without sub-200 opponents etc) then Ali has a 30%+ KOratio (11 KOs whole career) and chambers has a 40%+ KOratio (18 KOs mid-career).

• THIRD: As soon as Ali moved up to 200+ (= the comparable weight to Chambers) he VISIBLY became slower and slower until he merely was plodding around. Ali-200 is indeed slower than Eddie-200. And all the flurries that Ali delivered were just that: Wind movers (as is proven by his ridiculously low KOratio).

• FOURTH: You compare Ali (who is considered an ATG) to Chambers who is not considered an ATG. You compare Ali who was considered the best of a decade to Chambers who is not considered the best of the decade. This is of course as illegitimate as comparing Lennox Lewis to Buster Mathis

• FIFTH: That Chambers has a weaker chin is complete speculation of yours.

[slickfox]

is it true what someone posted about you that you secretly love the klitsckos but are mad about haye and lennox not getting any props so you pretend to hate them?

[Vadrigar.]

So what you are saying that if the Kltischko brothers fought Travis Walker, who has got the physique, you will give them credit? Chambers is also a lot heavier than most of Ali's opponents, even at 208, he is 30lbs more than Ali's Bob Foster. Thompson was 247 against Wlad, Foreman was 212 against Ali. HWs have gotten bigger period but being cut is the exception for big men, not the norm. It's a lot easier to look all cut up for a 6'3" man when he is 196 (that's the picture you have) than when he is 220lbs, why don't you show some pictures of Ali later in his career, when he had some flab. The HW period you are talking about had 177lbs and 185lbs guys masquerading as HWs and fighting under the label "heavy-weight". Not even cruisers today are that light. Like I said, it's a lot easier to look cut-up when you are Pac than when you are Pavlik. Take look at the physique of Eastern European HWs as well - Sultan, Chagaev, Dimitrenko - are any of them sculpted? That doesn't mean much though, in terms of skill. Not to cross into MMA, but take a look at chubby Fedor, he destroys sculpted dudes all the time. Skill is not tied to your physique, otherwise James Toney has none because he looked fat even at cruiser. The only guy who has that physique you are looking for other than the Klitschkos is David Haye, and he is too scared to even get in the ring with them.

[BattlingNelson]

Is this era worse than the era of Louis or the era of Holmes?

Great vid man. Have some karma.

[Calilloyd]

So what you are saying that if the Kltischko brothers fought Travis Walker, who has got the physique, you will give them credit? Chambers is also a lot heavier than most of Ali's opponents, even at 208, he is 30lbs more than Ali's Bob Foster. Thompson was 247 against Wlad, Foreman was 212 against Ali. HWs have gotten bigger period but being cut is the exception for big men, not the norm. It's a lot easier to look all cut up for a 6'3" man when he is 196 (that's the picture you have) than when he is 220lbs, why don't you show some pictures of Ali later in his career, when he had some flab. The HW period you are talking about had 177lbs and 185lbs guys masquerading as HWs and fighting under the label "heavy-weight". Not even cruisers today are that light. Like I said, it's a lot easier to look cut-up when you are Pac than when you are Pavlik. Take look at the physique of Eastern European HWs as well - Sultan, Chagaev, Dimitrenko - are any of them sculpted? That doesn't mean much though, in terms of skill. Not to cross into MMA, but take a look at chubby Fedor, he destroys sculpted dudes all the time. Skill is not tied to your physique, otherwise James Toney has none because he looked fat even at cruiser. The only guy who has that physique you are looking for other than the Klitschkos is David Haye, and he is too scared to even get in the ring with them.

Foreman was 220 against Ali. Ali was 216 against Foreman. Get your facts straight. Cpmparing Tony Thomson to Foreman is an example of some Klitschko fans ignorance.

[Calilloyd]

There is gonna be a yahoo or two that thinks the current HW division is actually strong and that American's are just hating. But America fully embraced Lennox Lewis at the end of his career as a viable champion and a lot of that has to due with the fact that he beat so many good fighters including Vitali himself.

Not really. The American media was always highly critical of Lewis. The Klitschko's are not exclusive when it comes to that. I'm not saying you but many of their fans fail to see that. In fact, most Americans in the audience cheered for Klitschko when he fought Lewis. I know because I saw it live.

[Calilloyd]

You make several mistakes there.

• FIRST: You claim that an athletic heavyweight is better than a chubby heavyweight. This is a completely unproven statement like "an athletic weight lifter is better than a chubby one".
  
  You have absolutely nothing to back it up. In fact it could very well be that a chubby heavyweight is the perfect heavyweight, thus all your athletic pictures would actually prove how bad the 70ies division was.
  
  Heavyweight is not the division for bigger cruiser boys. Heavyweight is a division in its own right with its own laws.

• SECOND: You compare Ali's KOratio (which includes sub-200-bums) with Chamber's KOratio which consists of 200+ opponents.
  
  In the entire 60ies Ali had only 8 fights where he and his opponents were 200+ lbs. The rest of the fights were Ali being sub-200 (= you cannot compare him to Chambers) or Ali's opponents being sub-200 (= you cannot compare their KOratio).
  
  60ies-Ali scored only 6(!) KOs in real heavyweight fights (both opponents 200+) of which 2 were against bums (London, Powell), 1 KO was against gun-wounded Cleveland Williams and 2 KOs were against Liston who possibly took a dive. HOWEVER let's simply count these 6 KOs as if they were good KOs indeed.
  
  In Ali's further career (70ies) he scored 5(!) more KOs within 12 rounds in real heavyweight fights. In other words: When you CORRECTLY compare Chamber's record and Ali's record (= without sub-200 opponents etc) then Ali has a 30%+ KOratio (11 KOs whole career) and chambers has a 40%+ KOratio (18 KOs mid-career).

• THIRD: As soon as Ali moved up to 200+ (= the comparable weight to Chambers) he VISIBLY became slower and slower until he merely was plodding around. Ali-200 is indeed slower than Eddie-200. And all the flurries that Ali delivered were just that: Wind movers (as is proven by his ridiculously low KOratio).

• FOURTH: You compare Ali (who is considered an ATG) to Chambers who is not considered an ATG. You compare Ali who was considered the best of a decade to Chambers who is not considered the best of the decade. This is of course as illegitimate as comparing Lennox Lewis to Buster Mathis

• FIFTH: That Chambers has a weaker chin is complete speculation of yours.

Since when did Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, and Zora Folley become "bums? They didn't go the distance with Ali. The fact that you are trying to rewrite history by telling lies speaks for itself. And Ali was 200 plus pounds for a long time before he "slowed down" due to age and nearly 4 years of inactivity. How slow was 210 Ali against Liston? You don't have to lie to kick it.

[Calilloyd]

Is this era worse than the era of Louis or the era of Holmes?

Great vid man. Have some karma.

For American heavyweights, yes. In general, no.

[WladIsTheChamp]

Foreman was 220 against Ali. Ali was 216 against Foreman. Get your facts straight. Cpmparing Tony Thomson to Foreman is an example of some Klitschko fans ignorance.

I stand corrected, I was off by 8 pounds, sue me. Point is "Big George" wasn't all that big if he was 220 and ONLY 4lbs heavier than Ali.

[sicko]

American Heavyweights are all FAT and out of shape and the ones who are in shape either lacks power or just not that good

it is not Klitschko fault that a lot of potential heavyweight boxers went on to become TE's in the NFL or PF's in the NBA

Michael Grant was suppose to be the "next in line" after Lennox but unfortunately for him HBO and his promoters rushed him into a fight with Lennox and it ruined him

anyway I am a fan of the Klitschko's unlike others who are mad at them because they are dominating the Heavyweight division, eventually America will produce a monster that will take the world by storm in the Heavyweight division but as of right now these FLABBY guys don't stand a chance against the Klitschko's