Is Ali a bit overrated ?

[Tiozzo]

i voted overrated only cuz IDT he's GOAT, like he and others have claimed....

to be fair, Ali himself said the greatest P4P FIGHTER of AT was SRR

[WladIsTheChamp]

Forgot to mention Central American, Mexico in particular, boxing has always been big there and it still is, it's not waning there one bit. The only place in the world where boxing has been perceived to be doing poorly is in the US. Although judging from super fights involving Mayweather, Oscar, etc. It still doing pretty damn well in the US as well. I am not sure what golden age you were referring to but probably to the time when people did not have any other forms of entertainment and there was one tv set on the entire block, college sports were not as big, and the most popular sporting event was baseball (not football as it is today). Stop living in the past, unless you are 60...

[Tiozzo]

CLEVELAND WILLIAMS HAD BEEN SHOT RIGHT BEFORE THE FIGHT. What the hell are you talking about. How can anyone talk about that win as an accomplishment. He didnt even have a large intestine. Not that Cleveland Williams was ever that good, but seriously this has to be a joke.

Cleveland Williams was not good, he was great. That man was a beast, he had unbelievable skills and power. Most boxing historians and experts agree to say Williams was the best HW to never win the championship.

A healthy prime Williams would have given Ali hell.

[knn]

I am very happy how this thread goes. When I started a few years ago to criticize Ali, the CLAYtons were much louder.

Even a few months ago they were more active:
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=282454
and
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=285061

It seems that the constant Ali bashing (or rather "Ali Fact Check") of me and others bear some fruits now. In a few years the support for Ali will evaporate even more. I don't think they will kick him out of the HOF, though (although they should because of his disgusting racism). The HOF is too US-based.

[Tiozzo]

Nonsense, he scored only 19 KOs in his heavyweight career.

He has a heavyweight KOratio of 40%+. He is a bigger featherfist than Chris Byrd. Get over it.

Aside from the fact that

• large part of his intestines were removed prior to the fight
• his kidneys were damaged
• he couldn't train

Wipe the win against featherfist Williams off the record of Ali. As you should do with left-eye-blind Frazier.

it is a fact that Williams was a big puncher
opponents like Ali and Liston attested that

by the way, you cannot judge a fighter's power solely based on his KO ratio, this is nonsense

the number of KO you get depends more on your style than on your ability to punch

Williams was a boxer-puncher, we was not all that aggressive

AND YOU ****ED UP BIG TIME WITH HIS RECORD AND KO RATIO

HERE IS HIS RECORD :

won 78 (KO 58) + lost 13 (KO 8) + drawn 1 = 92
rounds boxed 471 KO% 63.04

YOU MADE A FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF

[elhijoprodigo]

Ali was to boxing what The Rock was to wrestling

[Tiozzo]

Ali was not the greatest, how can people even argue he was the greatest. The greatest dont lose to people with 6 fights or get knocked out by 185 pounders. The greatest doesnt take 15 rounds to beat chuck wepner and get knocked down by him. Ali came out on top in an era where there was a lot of parity. That is all. When everything finished he won the last fights, but really, you cannot tell me that Ali dominated his division or anything like that. You might say it was the golden age of HW boxing because 1. other sports like football were much smaller, 2. Fights were on regular tv. and 3. there were a lot of evenly matched fighters with big personalities who were very active. Thats it. Tommy Machine Gunn Morrison would have KO'ed Ali in 3. The difference today is Vitali and Wlad are so dominant that they dont get the respect they deserve. People act like Ali woulda had a better legacy IF he didnt get banned and IF he beat Norton and Frazier....uhhh....no. Thats what made his legacy, losing to those 2. That allowed other fighters like Foreman and such to get more respect after beating those guys. It also gave Ali more respect for getting revenge. Vitali's problem is Lewis retired, Wlad's biggest problem is that the guys who beat him didnt do anything but get destroyed by Vitali. The two wont fight eachother, so they cant play off eachother or take credit for eachothers records. How often do you hear people say, "But Ali beat foreman and he killed Norton and Frazier"...Wellif Wlad hel a victory over Vitali you could say the same thing. The problem today is there are 2 heavyweight division. HW Division Vitali and HW division Wlad.

Ali was a joke who cherry picked fighters usually right after losses or who were much smaller than him. He demanded rematches but wouldnt give them to his tougher opponents. If I was making a list of all time great HW's itd look like this.

1. Vitali
2. Lewis
3. Wlad
4. Evander
...
48. Chris Byrd
...
74. Andrew Golata
..
148. John Ruiz
...
288. Christobal Arreola
...
347. Muhammad "Coward" Ali
348. Buster Douglas

BASICALLY, you're a hater, and you're only here to nuthug the Klits

sad but true

Ali beat plenty of HOFers
Vitali beat none
nuff said

[Tiozzo]

I am very happy how this thread goes. When I started a few years ago to criticize Ali, the CLAYtons were much louder.

Even a few months ago they were more active:
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=282454
and
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=285061

It seems that the constant Ali bashing (or rather "Ali Fact Check") of me and others bear some fruits now. In a few years the support for Ali will evaporate even more. I don't think they will kick him out of the HOF, though (although they should because of his disgusting racism). The HOF is too US-based.

my thread is not meant to bash Ali and diminish the support he is rightfully given

it's meant to reflect on Ali's fans and public perception as the greatest HW ever (or GOAT sometimes)

he is unquestionnably a top 3 HW of AT, I think he's not number 1, let alone the GOAT, because there are some weak spots in his career that show that maybe he is slightly overrated

if you enjoy hating, this is not the place

[knn]

it is a fact that Williams was a big puncher
opponents like Ali and Liston attested that

Yeah, let's trust bum-beater Liston more than FACTS.

by the way, you cannot judge a fighter's power solely based on his KO ratio, this is nonsense

Of course you can deduct power from the KOratio. Please don't try to argue against common sense.

the number of KO you get depends more on your style than on your ability to punch

If you claim that he had power but tended to miss... then EFFECTIVELY he was NOT a power-puncher. Who cares how he would score on a punch-o-meter?

Williams was a boxer-puncher, we was not all that aggressive

AND YOU ****ED UP BIG TIME WITH HIS RECORD AND KO RATIO

HERE IS HIS RECORD :

won 78 (KO 58) + lost 13 (KO 8) + drawn 1 = 92
rounds boxed 471 KO% 63.04

YOU MADE A FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF

Gee, did you read what I wrote? That 78-13 record includes CRUISER opponents. Muhammad Ali has a KOratio of 76% in cruiser fights and 34% in heavyweight fights. Muhammad Ali is cruiser-KOer but a heavyweight featherfist.

Who cares that Evan Fields was a heavy hitter as a cruiser (78%)? All that counts is that he is a featherfist as a heavyweight (36%).

Williams was a heavyweight featherfist. As was Frazier (KOratio 50%).

[Tiozzo]

Shame that so many rely on what they read here for their boxing knowledge. Voting Ali is overrated???

slightly...

when you're rated as high as Ali, it is not a big deal if you are actually slightly overrated