Why was Michael Spinks known as the greatest light heavyweight ever? Was he really ?

[GasPed]

I found this all-time Light Heavyweight ranking, which was compiled by about 40(or so) members of the IBRO (guys who've studied the history of the sport and have plenty of footage covering all eras). Each memeber put in their top 20 and from their they added up the votes to reach a general consensus. Here it is;

1. Archie Moore
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Sam Langford
4. Gene Tunney
5. Bob Foster
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Michael Spinks
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
9. Billy Conn
10. Roy Jones Jr.
11. Maxie Rosenbloom
12. John Henry Lewis
13. Harry Greb
14. Tommy Gibbons
15. Jack O'Brien
16. Jack Dillon
17. Harold Johnson
18. Jimmy Bivins
19. Georges Carpentier
20. Battling Levinsky

Just Missing the Cut: Jack Delaney, Kid McCoy, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Qawi, Joey Maxim, Joe Choynski, Kid Norfolk, Virgil Hill, Tommy Burns, and Tiger Jack Fox.

If you ask me that's a very SOLID ranking and I'll definately give it two thumbs up!

P.S. Give me a minute to look through my magazines, and for comparision purposes, I'll find and post the one William Detloff published a few years ago in Ring magazine.

Even though that list is good, I think it highlights some of the problems when dealing with the early fighters, who either didn’t pay much attention to weight divisions, or moved between divisions a lot. Sam Langford, for instance, a great fighter - but who said he was a light heavyweight? Gene Tunney did much of his work as a heavyweight, and so did Ezzard Charles. Even Tommy Loughran fought a bunch at heavyweight. Who says these guys were light heavyweights anyhow?

Granted, when they fought at light heavy, they were very good, but so was Roy Jones when he fought at middle – does that make him an all-time great middleweight? At any rate, having seen Bob Foster, Moore, Charles, and a little bit of Tunney on tape, I’m convinced Spinks could live with and probably beat any of them. IMHO.

[Yogi]

That's a pretty good list, but I completely agree with you about Tunney. WAY too low.

He beat a number of hall of famers, including the #4 and #13 guys on that list! He only lost once in 87 fights to Harry Greb (no shame there) and he avenged that defeat by giving Greb a savage beating.

I have a copy of a first-hand account of that Tunney/Loughran fight (newspaper report), so if you're interested I can post it for you...It was a close fight, but you might not have the opinion that Tunney defeated Loughran after you've read it (I had the impression that Loughran had the edge).

Shall I post it?

[GasPed]

That's a pretty good list, but I completely agree with you about Tunney. WAY too low.

He beat a number of hall of famers, including the #4 and #13 guys on that list! He only lost once in 87 fights to Harry Greb (no shame there) and he avenged that defeat by giving Greb a savage beating.

See - that's what I mean - is Tunney a light-heavyweight? He fought at 175-190 for most of his career, so what does that make him?...

[GOAT]

Tunney fought for 10 years at light-heavyweight and then moved up to HW for only the last couple years of his career.

Loughran did his best work by far at LHW, but actually started as a middleweight. The fact that he eventually moved up to heavyweight last in his career doesn't change that.

Same with Charles. Charles, in my opinion, was one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time. But, he started at middleweight and was definitely at his best as a light-heavyweight.

[GOAT]

I have a copy of a first-hand account of that Tunney/Loughran fight (newspaper report), so if you're interested I can post it for you...It was a close fight, but you might not have the opinion that Tunney defeated Loughran after you've read it (I had the impression that Loughran had the edge).

Shall I post it?

I have probably read it. I think the Philadelphia writers (Loughran was from Phil.) mostly thought that Loughran deserved a razor thin decision, whereas the New York writers thought Tunney won the fight.

[Yogi]

See - that's what I mean - is Tunney a light-heavyweight? He fought at 175-190 for most of his career, so what does that make him?...

Tunney was considered a Light Heavyweight atleast up until the end of 1924, as evidence by this annual ranking from Ring Magazine from that year;

1. Gene Tunney
2. Young Stribling
3. Kid Norfolk
4. Mike McTigue (Champion)
5. Ad Stone
6. Jeff Smith
7. Paul Berlenbach
8. Young Marullo
9. Tommy Loughran
10. Jimmy Delaney

It was only the last couple/few years of his career when he was considered a Heavyweight (compared to about nine or ten when he was considered a Light Heavyweight), and he truthfully didn't have many fights at that higher weight.

[GasPed]

Yah - ranking Tunney and Loughran as light-heavies is ok in my book. But Charles? According to the Ring rankings, he's only listed for 2 years as a light-heavy ('46-'47), the rest at heavy. I admit, he did some excellent work as a light-heavy (including beating Moore twice), but enough to be ranked #1 all-time? Maybe...

[Yogi]

Yah - ranking Tunney and Loughran as light-heavies is ok in my book. But Charles? According to the Ring rankings, he's only listed for 2 years as a light-heavy ('46-'47), the rest at heavy. I admit, he did some excellent work as a light-heavy (including beating Moore twice), but enough to be ranked #1 all-time? Maybe...

Charles went up to Light Heavyweight in 1942 with a vicory over former number one ranked Light Heavyweight contender, Booker Beckwith*, and with the exception of his stint in the army, stayed at that weight until the late 40's.

*Ring's Light Heavyweight ratings for Nov. 1941;

Champion: Gus Lesnevich

1: Booker Beckwith
2: Mose Brown
3: Jimmy Bivins
4: Tami Mauriello
5: Jimmy Webb
6: Anton Christoforidis
7: Erv Sarlen
8: Oscar Rankins
9: Teddy Yarosz
10: Joey Maxim

If you look over Charles' record, I'm sure you'll find that he had about twice as many Light Heavyweight fights as did Spinks, with a much greater level of opposition.

[Yogi]

P.S. Charles defeated Archie Moore three times in total during his Light Heavyweight days, including one fight where he completely dominated the Ole' Mongoose before knocking him out for the count in the eighth round.

[Yogi]

Charles went up to Light Heavyweight in 1942 with a vicory over former number one ranked Light Heavyweight contender, Booker Beckwith*, and with the exception of his stint in the army, stayed at that weight until the late 40's.

*Ring's Light Heavyweight ratings for Nov. 1941;

Champion: Gus Lesnevich

1: Booker Beckwith
2: Mose Brown
3: Jimmy Bivins
4: Tami Mauriello
5: Jimmy Webb
6: Anton Christoforidis
7: Erv Sarlen
8: Oscar Rankins
9: Teddy Yarosz
10: Joey Maxim

If you look over Charles' record, I'm sure you'll find that he had about twice as many Light Heavyweight fights as did Spinks, with a much greater level of opposition.

My last line in that post was a bit of an exageration (the "twice as many" one), but Charles still had plenty more fights at Light Heavyweight than did Spinks.