if oscar is an atg..then isnt judah aswell??

[Frighteous]

Oscar beat Pernel Whitaker
beat Julio Cesar Chavez


that's 2 ATG's


Beat Vargas
Beat Mosley
Beat Trinidad

That's HOF'ers

Beat Ike Quartey, Molina, Camacho, Carr, and many other very good fighters.

Who has Judah beat? Spinks? Doesn't even compare

chavez was fckin old...i like oscar, but I seen Sturm get robbed long ago vs him, I felt like Sturm won that match. After Sturm 'beat' him I felt like, wtf is going on here you know?

I really don't blame the judges though, can't give a decision to a German fighting over here, because they damn sure wouldn't give a decision to an American fighting over there.

[Calilloyd]

LOL.

As I said its not your opinion I disagree with, just the manner in which you are presenting it.

Ike Quartey was a certified ****ing beast when Oscar beat him. I wasn't watching boxing at that time, but I've bought Ike's career set, I've seen the fights, the man was one hell of a WW with a very tough style to fight effectively against. Oscar took the fight and when it was all on the line going into the 12th (well actually it wasn't but it should have been) he fought one of the rounds of his life. That was a great win. Put it this way. I'm comfortable putting that win alongside any of Floyd's, who is clearly an ATG.

I agree with your overall view of the Pernell fight. I've seen almost all of Pea's fights as well and he was definately more than on the slide going into the OScar fight. He looked awful against Hurtado. Still, Pea was a phenomenal fighter (top 20 IMO) and was stylistically extremely tough, so Oscar does deserve some credit for that win IMO.

The first Chavez win is a little underrated IMO. Brutal destruction of a great fighter.

Its his body of wins against very good opposition that you also need to consider. As has been stated several times over he beat a whole lot of very good names throughout his career.

But as I said I'm cool with you not ranking him as an ATG, its all opinions, I just don't think you give him a great deal of credit for what he accomplished, which is a hell of a lot. You are very quick to criticise him, but not so willing to give him credit that he deserves. That is my take on it.

But as I said, my main feeling is that it is disgraceful that a so-called boxing fan is trying to compare Oscar to Zab Judah. I think it is indicative of how many ****-for-brains are on here.

Everything you said here is true. But the problem I have with the Quartey fight is the timing of it. It should have happened two years earlier. When it did happen, Quartey had already started his inactive slide that he continued for the rest of his career.

[Ben_London]

What he said.

LOL.

As I said its not your opinion I disagree with, just the manner in which you are presenting it.

Ike Quartey was a certified ****ing beast when Oscar beat him. I wasn't watching boxing at that time, but I've bought Ike's career set, I've seen the fights, the man was one hell of a WW with a very tough style to fight effectively against. Oscar took the fight and when it was all on the line going into the 12th (well actually it wasn't but it should have been) he fought one of the rounds of his life. That was a great win. Put it this way. I'm comfortable putting that win alongside any of Floyd's, who is clearly an ATG.

I agree with your overall view of the Pernell fight. I've seen almost all of Pea's fights as well and he was definately more than on the slide going into the OScar fight. He looked awful against Hurtado. Still, Pea was a phenomenal fighter (top 20 IMO) and was stylistically extremely tough, so Oscar does deserve some credit for that win IMO.

The first Chavez win is a little underrated IMO. Brutal destruction of a great fighter.

Its his body of wins against very good opposition that you also need to consider. As has been stated several times over he beat a whole lot of very good names throughout his career.

But as I said I'm cool with you not ranking him as an ATG, its all opinions, I just don't think you give him a great deal of credit for what he accomplished, which is a hell of a lot. You are very quick to criticise him, but not so willing to give him credit that he deserves. That is my take on it.

But as I said, my main feeling is that it is disgraceful that a so-called boxing fan is trying to compare Oscar to Zab Judah. I think it is indicative of how many ****-for-brains are on here.

[BoxerDood]

chavez was fckin old...i like oscar, but I seen Sturm get robbed long ago vs him, I felt like Sturm won that match. After Sturm 'beat' him I felt like, wtf is going on here you know?

I really don't blame the judges though, can't give a decision to a German fighting over here, because they damn sure wouldn't give a decision to an American fighting over there.

Oscar was on a decline when he fought Sturm, and he clearly didn't belong at 160.

[IMDAZED]

Ike Quartey was a certified ****ing beast when Oscar beat him. I wasn't watching boxing at that time, but I've bought Ike's career set, I've seen the fights, the man was one hell of a WW with a very tough style to fight effectively against. Oscar took the fight and when it was all on the line going into the 12th (well actually it wasn't but it should have been) he fought one of the rounds of his life. That was a great win. Put it this way. I'm comfortable putting that win alongside any of Floyd's, who is clearly an ATG.

Ike Quartey is arguably his best win. So you won't get any arguments from me. But just some background since you weren't watching back then. De La Hoya refused to mention Quartey by name until Quartey was dropped twice and looked extremely vulnerable in his disputed draw to Jose Louis Lopez. Then he knew his name. And then signed to fight him and then pulled out. Bazooka was pretty rusty when they met.

I agree with your overall view of the Pernell fight. I've seen almost all of Pea's fights as well and he was definately more than on the slide going into the OScar fight. He looked awful against Hurtado. Still, Pea was a phenomenal fighter (top 20 IMO) and was stylistically extremely tough, so Oscar does deserve some credit for that win IMO.

Yeah basically. He got dropped twice by Hurtado and was losing every round. Oscar was a huge favorite going in and Pea shocked everyone - outlanding him and making him miss all night.

The first Chavez win is a little underrated IMO. Brutal destruction of a great fighter.

Brutal destruction? I guess. Chavez had suffered a terrible cut in sparring, agreed to go ahead with the fight anyway and then it opened up in like, what, round two? He was leaking everywhere - that's why they stopped the fight. Wasn't like he was hurt or something. Weird.

Its his body of wins against very good opposition that you also need to consider. As has been stated several times over he beat a whole lot of very good names throughout his career.

If those three are the best you got then that's not going to do it. And let's face it...they are. I don't see it and I know people like to go on boxrec and try to be heroes but I defer to those who were fans at the time and know the story to each fight. More important than who is when. And Oscar was the master of that (ie. no rematch with Pea, Ike or Tito; avoiding Vernon Forrest then immediately calling him out after he got KO'ed; doing the same thing with Vargas, etc). Despite that...he STILL lost a lot of those fights

[IMDAZED]

I agree. All time greats to me are fighters that beat other great fighters in dominating fashion or definitive fashion. Oscar NEVER did that. He is a hall of famer but no ATG. But he is above Judah. I don't have any questions about that.

Agreed. Again, a lot of these guys weren't following the sport then. Perfect example:

Oscar wants to fight some LW named Shane Mosley. He is a huge favorite and many are clowning him for taking on Shane who had fought at 147 twice and looked decent at best and was not supposed to be able to match him in size or strength (which was the point). What happens? He goes out and loses to Shane. Shane becomes a star.

Fast forward...

Oscar wants to fight some LW named Manny Pacquiao. He is a huge favorite and many are clowning him for taking on Manny. You get the point.

What am I saying? He is the master of fighting "who" - which is why "when" is so much more important. Even then...he still lost a lot of those fights!

[Calilloyd]

Ike Quartey is arguably his best win. So you won't get any arguments from me. But just some background since you weren't watching back then. De La Hoya refused to mention Quartey by name until Quartey was dropped twice and looked extremely vulnerable in his disputed draw to Jose Louis Lopez. Then he knew his name. And then signed to fight him and then pulled out. Bazooka was pretty rusty when they met.

Yeah basically. He got dropped twice by Hurtado and was losing every round. Oscar was a huge favorite going in and Pea shocked everyone - outlanding him and making him miss all night.


Brutal destruction? I guess. Chavez had suffered a terrible cut in sparring, agreed to go ahead with the fight anyway and then it opened up in like, what, round two? He was leaking everywhere - that's why they stopped the fight. Wasn't like he was hurt or something. Weird.

If those three are the best you got then that's not going to do it. And let's face it...they are. I don't see it and I know people like to go on boxrec and try to be heroes but I defer to those who were fans at the time and know the story to each fight. More important than who is when. And Oscar was the master of that (ie. no rematch with Pea, Ike or Tito; avoiding Vernon Forrest then immediately calling him out after he got KO'ed; doing the same thing with Vargas, etc). Despite that...he STILL lost a lot of those fights

I remember that. Oscar claimed he had to postpone the fight due to a cut. The problem with that is nobody ever saw the cut. This increased Quartey's already extensive time out of the ring.

[Thread Stealer]

I think it goes to show Ike Quartey's quality as a fighter to be off for about a year and a half, and arguably beat a prime undefeated Oscar (Ike did on my card, DLH did **** all in the mid rounds).

All-time great is very subjective, but DLH is light years greater than Zab Judah.

[IMDAZED]

I remember that. Oscar claimed he had to postpone the fight due to a cut. The problem with that is nobody ever saw the cut.

Yeah. I remember Michael Katz showing up at the press conference with a magnifying glass

[Thread Stealer]

I remember that. Oscar claimed he had to postpone the fight due to a cut. The problem with that is nobody ever saw the cut.

De La Hoya's second fight with Chavez was tougher than expected. Oscar and his team probably figured they should get some rest and then do a longer training camp. The original Quartey date was just two months after the Chavez rematch.

Quartey would've been coming off over a year of inactivity regardless if that wasn't postponed. Quartey's schedule got all screwed up when Whitaker had the drug problems and the Trinidad fight got sc****d because of Ike's promotional issues.