So how come Pac was able to get Better while Floyd declined?

[Silencers]

I think it has to do with mentality honestly, Mayweather is a defensive fighter so he has a defensive mentality, he doesn't want to get hit by the bigger guys because he doesn't know how he'd react so he punches less, his output drops and he gets more defensive as he moves up in weight, he doesn't show everything he has in his arsenal IMO because he hasn't really needed to so maybe that makes him look worse than he did a few years ago.

Pacquiao on the other hand doesn't seem to care whether he gets hit or not, he just wants to win and please the fans at the same time, so his mentality is more offensive, he's willing to show everything in his arsenal each and every time out, he's learning new stuff in the gym fight by fight and he shows it in every one of his fights so obviously he's getting better.

[Benny Leonard]

So what is your point? You're suppose to throw less punches as you move up in weight? Heh?

What?

Speed: look at the speed at 130 to even 140...and the flexibility. Floyd looks a little better back then than now.

Now compare that with Pac who has at least kept his ability up over the years.

Floyd can get away with it because he relies on his technical ability and what he has learned over the years...but he hasn't been forced to keep at a high level or even improve because he hasn't fought Great competition at 147+ that would force him to stay peak/improve.

[Benny Leonard]

I think it has to do with mentality honestly, Mayweather is a defensive fighter so he has a defensive mentality, he doesn't want to get hit by the bigger guys because he doesn't know how he'd react so he punches less, his output drops and he gets more defensive as he moves up in weight, he doesn't show everything he has in his arsenal IMO because he hasn't really needed to so maybe that makes him look worse than he did a few years ago.

Pacquiao on the other hand doesn't seem to care whether he gets hit or not, he just wants to win and please the fans at the same time, so his mentality is more offensive, he's willing to show everything in his arsenal each and every time out, he's learning new stuff in the gym fight by fight and he shows it in every one of his fights so obviously he's getting better.

I thought about this but that doesn't explain the Hatton fight or the Oscar fight.

Sure, Oscar was still dangerous and bigger...but he could have fought him like he did Diego, no...same with Hatton.

And not just that...his speed doesn't look quite as fast and his movement, especially when he bends over/leans away isn't quite as sharp/fast. His timing is still good...no question.



Actually, Tyson is an example. It was even mentioned in the Ruddock fight that he didn't look quite as fast as he used to during his days with Rooney. It's about the way they trained. I have a good article about how Cus used to train fighters, specifically big Fat Buster Mathis who lost weight, improved and got fast because of the training.
Get rid of the training and the need to improve and even the best can slip no matter what age.
That's why Sprinters can run one time one year and not the next if they don't keep training accordingly.





Cus and Buster:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1079455/3/index.htm

Here is something quick from the article:

When Mathis began punching Willie, D'Amato had him throw only one punch every five seconds. Then he gradually speeded up the process, and Mathis can now deliver a five-punch combination in as little as three-fifths of a second. " Frazier couldn't do this," D'Amato says. "He wouldn't have the power, speed, coordination or stamina. Clay couldn't do it either. You have to have done this over a period of months and months."

Every day Mathis goes at least five rounds against Willie. Once, when he complained, D'Amato kept him at it extra hard, and when Mathis was through he had thrown, by D'Amato's count, 12,000 punches. D'Amato says, "I told him Clay had thrown only 1,760 punches in the Chuvalo fight and not to complain again." To which Mathis adds, "When I walk into the ring, I figure I gotta win. No one trains as hard as me, runs as hard as me or has had Cus on his back."

[screwhead1]

floyd has only gotten better...his accuracy is out the roof...his speed is three times as fast...his defense is damn near flawless now...when you can count on one hand how many times a person hits you...i can't see how that's a decline...i believe that he can go into 154 and wash them up when his welter run is over...

[Jiddu Dali]

I was thinking about this and watching some tapes:

Floyd's speed and flexibility (away from his punch-out-put) has seemingly declined on some level as he settled in at 147...while Pac has continually improved in many ways and has at least kept his speed unless some think it is better...don't know.

So how come Pac was able to do it but not Floyd?

Training, Nutrition...with Ariza and Roach's help?
Of course.

But why not Floyd?

Well, maybe it was because unlike Pac who needed to get better because he did well but not "great" in the lower weight divisions knew that if he continued to fight on and move up he had to continually get better.
So, he looked to advance himself with the help of Nutrition, Training set up by Ariza and Roach to help him become better technically. Hard Work and Study to improve.

Floyd: well, after moving up to 147 and settling in, I guess it can be looked at as if he sat on his ass and when you do that, you decline. There is no need to improve and it is when you just try to maintain your ability you can actually start to slip with age. The way to beat age is to find new ways to stimulate your mind and body. Pac did it; Floyd may not have.

Now if Floyd was forced to fight the best at 147 maybe that would have kicked his ass in gear to continually improve. Kind of like War. Those who settle in and get comfortable and don't have a major threat on the boarders, tend to become vulnerable and fade away while others who are constantly in warfare and have a fear level to survive, strive to continually improve to live.


You have Sr. throwing out PEDs use against Pac...but maybe Sr. and little Floyd are "Old School" on their approach to athletics/boxing.
Hopkins was like this throughout his MW career and he slowed down when he hit his 30's so he had to start pacing himself and picking and choosing when to fight during each round. He moves up to LH and he comes into the "Now" and hires a Pro...Mackie Shilstone...someone who is known to train some of the best athletes in the World to improve in the modern way. Hopkins became refreshed. Still declined compared to his early days but seemingly better than he was at MW.

So who does Floyd have? Big Leonard? I don't know. I'm a bit ignorant on this subject with him. But one thing is for sure: he seemingly is not the same as he used to be and Pac has been able to continually increase weight and get better...as well as his willingness to add on to his arsenal.
Now it wasn't a huge leap in technical ability as some may think it is...No...and it did take a long time to improve even slightly technically for Pac....but at least he put the effort in to get the desired results.

Declined how? I see no decline at all. & I dont see how Pac has improved skill wise. The same way he fought David Diaz is the same way he fought, DLH, Hatton & Cotto....his style is perfect for those fighters.

Honestly I dont think Pacquiao or Mayweather has improved over the past 2-3 years. Mayweather has improved on his defense (since moving up) & Pac has improved on throwing the right. Minor adjustments really.... The only difference is they both got bigger. What is there to improve on when you are 30 years old and already a #1 or #2 P4P fighter?

[S A M U R A I]

Maybe Floyd lost the desire, and now he only desires money. It's not surprising since he's been in the game for such a long time. To stay on top you need that fire burning in your belly, not just dollars in your pocket. That's not gonna cut it at this level. Pacquiao, unbelievably, still has that fire.

I think Maybe Floyd rested on his laurels and never imagined anyone would come along who posed a serious threat to his status. He was wrong, and now he's trying to turn it around. I can't tell whether he's slipped or not because he hasn't done anything significant in two years.



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[Killa_Kali]

What?

Now compare that with Pac who has at least kept his ability up over the years.

actually pac struggled in the lower weights. main reason for his early losses and the debated results of fights against JMM.

He was draining himself just to make weight as his body kept on growing. when he entered the 135+ phase... BAM.

he's now eating all the nutrition he wants without sacrificing anything.

[BOX-A-LOT]

What?

Speed: look at the speed at 130 to even 140...and the flexibility. Floyd looks a little better back then than now.

Now compare that with Pac who has at least kept his ability up over the years.

Floyd can get away with it because he relies on his technical ability and what he has learned over the years...but he hasn't been forced to keep at a high level or even improve because he hasn't fought Great competition at 147+ that would force him to stay peak/improve.

I have two school of thought re Floyd.

a) He may have gotten complacent, I mean, Floyd does make his victories look easy. It's like watching a man play amongst boys.

b)Since he kept moving up in weight, it's obvious that his workrate dropped. Could it be that Floyd is well aware that the bigger guys are hitting much harder than when he was tearin' up the 130-135 divisions. He may very well be a fighter who doesn't like the contact.

[woodsyallin]

What the hell have you been smoking? Floyd has not declined any. If he had, he would have lost a fight by now. Second, the only difference betweek Floyd at 147 and the lower weights is he is not as offensive-minded, meaning he doesn't throw as many combinations at 147 as he did previously. Pacquaio is the same come-forward, throw caution to the wind fighter he has always been. He has gotten away with that so far, but it will get him KO'd against Mayweather.

well put sir

[S A M U R A I]

floyd has only gotten better...his accuracy is out the roof...his speed is three times as fast...his defense is damn near flawless now...when you can count on one hand how many times a person hits you...i can't see how that's a decline...i believe that he can go into 154 and wash them up when his welter run is over...

Screwhead, what are you using as a gauge, the Marquez fight?



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