Comments Thread For: As Daniel Dubois closes in on rematch with Oleksandr Usyk what does that mean for Joseph Parker and the rest of the contenders?

[billeau2]

Heaps of boxers lose big fights. They don't chuck belts out, go on about 'strength' and fail to understand why they lost.

Look at Parker after getting jobbed by Joshua, then Whyte and splattered by Joyce. He ****** it up and got on with learning from his losses and made himself better.

Their contrasting actions speak louder than their words. Im not saying Joshua is an emotional cripple but he does need propped up and Fast Eddie is always there with the crutch.

I really like the debate between you and Sub Zero regarding whether Jhoshua's actions affect his ring performance. You both make good points maklng me kind of land in the middle here: Yes there is a level where such an outburst tells one someone has weaknesses to exploit... How much of this weakness translates to what happens in the ring is debatable. It shows cracks, and many great fighters with such cracks were often called out on them with 20 20 hindsight, making me wonder how much these cracks caused problems in the first place. here are some examples:

Mike Tyson. Evander Holyfield's victory (even more so than Buster Douglas') gave us the man who tamed the bully and made him quit. That was the narrative. Maybe so, but Holyfield also is very coachable and knew if he did not do as Turner told him he would not prevail. Turner, taught Holyfield to push against Tyson's triangulation point (I am paraphrasing) the point where we have no balance between our legs that forms a triangle. Everyone was getting away from Mike, Holy was pushing in against this point making Mike lose all the power to his shots. To me? this was absolutely a game changer more than any psychological cracks in Mike.

Liston losing to Ali. Again Liston the bully....But Liston had aged out, He underestimated Ali, and Ali had skills people were still unsure about. So was it really Liston's temperment that caused his downfall?

[SUBZER0ED]

There are details in the action of fights 'Don't just latch onto cliche narratives of certain fighter or historical boxing matches, and expect people who have observed and analysed boxing for many years. To ether agree with you, or not confront you'.

Anthony Joshua is a more determined fighter, than both Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder 'And I can prove this through the feats achieved by the fighters, their conduct and behaviour as fighters'.

I have always suspected 'That once Tyson Fury is beaten, he will get out of the game. And once a fighter beats Deontay WIlder, and withstands his power? His aura of intimidation will completely disintegrate. The year now is 2025, and Tyson Fury has retired after being beaten twice back to back by Oleksandr Uysk I & II. And Deontay Wilder is playing around at domestic level, for his comeback fight. That is not the behaviour or conduct of a determined fighter'.

But in comparison Anthony Joshua in his last fight 'Suffered his worst ever loss. But regardless, he is still aiming to become a 3 times world heavyweight Champion. Those are his ambitions as a fighter, his goals have always been clear. And for me personally, I think Anthony Joshua's conduct is displaying determination to a higher level than both Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder'.

Every single time Andy Ruiz Junior I dropped Anthony Joshua 'He got back up. And contrary to certain narratives, Joshua fought his way back into that fight before being stopped on his feet in the corner with a smile on his face. Andy Ruiz Junior vs Anthony Joshua I, was not a one sided beat down victory for Ruiz Junior. Joshua was dominating the first few rounds, and was the first to deck Ruiz Junior, then of course? Ruiz Junior decked Joshua and from that point it was a battle. At no point in Anthony Joshua's career, in any of his fights has he ever just disappeared without giving his opponents resistance'.

Even on Anthony Joshua worst night ever as a professional fighter 'The statistics his fight vs Daniel Dubois, show that he was fighting his way back into that fight. All the signs were there in that fight, in round 5 Anthony Joshua went from landing on average 40% of his punches, to over 80% of his punches during round 5. Even after being decked in round 1, the facts of that fight are? Anthony Joshua from the very moment he rose up off the canvas was slowly but surely, minute by minute fighting his way back into the fight. Before he amplified Dubois's punching power, by firstly making a technical mistake i.e. throwing an uppercut while wading forward with his guard completely down. This unforced error, amplified the power of Daniel Dubois which eventually lead to him then being knocked out'.

Note: One of the most challenging feats any boxer, can overcome inside a boxing ring in my opinion 'Is to immediately avenge a traumatic loss. Anthony Joshua has achieved this feat vs Andy Ruiz Junior II. The timing of that rematch most likely was not optimal for Joshua, but he knew? He had to immediately avenge the loss, which he did winning almost all the rounds easy. Anthony Joshua did not leave second gear in his rematch vs Andy Ruiz Junior II'.

To conclude: So the cliche narrative, that Anthony Joshua is some sort of push over fighter 'That disappears both inside and outside of the ring, is complete nonsense. And any honest person who stops to critical analyse the heavyweight game, will understand what I am saying? Is completely right'.

And on the topic of Frank Bruno 'He was only ever beaten by World Champions. And no fighter ever had a easy time against him, Frank Bruno was wining all his fights vs Tm Witherspoon, James Bone Crusher Smith, and Lennox Lewis before the stoppages. The only rather straight forward loss on his resume, was vs Mike Tyson in their rematch.'.

But if you have actually watched Mike Tyson vs Frank Bruno II? You would have seen that Bruno threw everything at Tyson in that first round. Which was not the best tactical move, but he definitively did not lose that fight due to lack of effort. Frank Bruno was injured coming into that fight, and knew it would be his last fight. Mike Tyson was just on another level offensively, and got a solid win'.

Here is one for all you guys? 'Frank Bruno has a better resume than Deontay Wilder, and has achieved greater individual wins. Beating Oliver McCall is a greater win than anything on Deontay Wilder's resume. That is no disrespect to Deontay Wilder as he has been one of the great Champions of his era, but that is a objective fact of Heavyweight Boxing History' etc.

If you read my previous posts, you'd see that I don't believe Joshua to be mentally weak. I was merely agreeing with one aspect of billeau2's point of him not always having that grit and determination to win. In the 1st Ruiz fight, the ref didn't stop it because Joshua was hurt, he stopped it because AJ showed no real desire to continue. As for Bruno vs Tyson 2? Yes, I watched it back then. I also watched the buildup and his appearance on David Letterman. I thought he was going to give Tyson hell, instead, he did a lot of holding and hitting while holding, until Tyson destroyed him in the 3rd round. I was very disappointed in Frank's performance.

[SUBZER0ED]

Heaps of boxers lose big fights. They don't chuck belts out, go on about 'strength' and fail to understand why they lost.

Look at Parker after getting jobbed by Joshua, then Whyte and splattered by Joyce. He ****** it up and got on with learning from his losses and made himself better.

Their contrasting actions speak louder than their words. Im not saying Joshua is an emotional cripple but he does need propped up and Fast Eddie is always there with the crutch.

Everyone reacts to disappointment differently. Some keep things to themselves, others act out.

[billeau2]

There are details in the action of fights 'Don't just latch onto cliche narratives of certain fighter or historical boxing matches, and expect people who have observed and analysed boxing for many years. To ether agree with you, or not confront you'.

Anthony Joshua is a more determined fighter, than both Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder 'And I can prove this through the feats achieved by the fighters, their conduct and behaviour as fighters'.

I have always suspected 'That once Tyson Fury is beaten, he will get out of the game. And once a fighter beats Deontay WIlder, and withstands his power? His aura of intimidation will completely disintegrate. The year now is 2025, and Tyson Fury has retired after being beaten twice back to back by Oleksandr Uysk I & II. And Deontay Wilder is playing around at domestic level, for his comeback fight. That is not the behaviour or conduct of a determined fighter'.

But in comparison Anthony Joshua in his last fight 'Suffered his worst ever loss. But regardless, he is still aiming to become a 3 times world heavyweight Champion. Those are his ambitions as a fighter, his goals have always been clear. And for me personally, I think Anthony Joshua's conduct is displaying determination to a higher level than both Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder'.

Every single time Andy Ruiz Junior I dropped Anthony Joshua 'He got back up. And contrary to certain narratives, Joshua fought his way back into that fight before being stopped on his feet in the corner with a smile on his face. Andy Ruiz Junior vs Anthony Joshua I, was not a one sided beat down victory for Ruiz Junior. Joshua was dominating the first few rounds, and was the first to deck Ruiz Junior, then of course? Ruiz Junior decked Joshua and from that point it was a battle. At no point in Anthony Joshua's career, in any of his fights has he ever just disappeared without giving his opponents resistance'.

Even on Anthony Joshua worst night ever as a professional fighter 'The statistics his fight vs Daniel Dubois, show that he was fighting his way back into that fight. All the signs were there in that fight, in round 5 Anthony Joshua went from landing on average 40% of his punches, to over 80% of his punches during round 5. Even after being decked in round 1, the facts of that fight are? Anthony Joshua from the very moment he rose up off the canvas was slowly but surely, minute by minute fighting his way back into the fight. Before he amplified Dubois's punching power, by firstly making a technical mistake i.e. throwing an uppercut while wading forward with his guard completely down. This unforced error, amplified the power of Daniel Dubois which eventually lead to him then being knocked out'.

Note: One of the most challenging feats any boxer, can overcome inside a boxing ring in my opinion 'Is to immediately avenge a traumatic loss. Anthony Joshua has achieved this feat vs Andy Ruiz Junior II. The timing of that rematch most likely was not optimal for Joshua, but he knew? He had to immediately avenge the loss, which he did winning almost all the rounds easy. Anthony Joshua did not leave second gear in his rematch vs Andy Ruiz Junior II'.

To conclude: So the cliche narrative, that Anthony Joshua is some sort of push over fighter 'That disappears both inside and outside of the ring, is complete nonsense. And any honest person who stops to critical analyse the heavyweight game, will understand what I am saying? Is completely right'.

And on the topic of Frank Bruno 'He was only ever beaten by World Champions. And no fighter ever had a easy time against him, Frank Bruno was wining all his fights vs Tm Witherspoon, James Bone Crusher Smith, and Lennox Lewis before the stoppages. The only rather straight forward loss on his resume, was vs Mike Tyson in their rematch.'.

But if you have actually watched Mike Tyson vs Frank Bruno II? You would have seen that Bruno threw everything at Tyson in that first round. Which was not the best tactical move, but he definitively did not lose that fight due to lack of effort. Frank Bruno was injured coming into that fight, and knew it would be his last fight. Mike Tyson was just on another level offensively, and got a solid win'.

Here is one for all you guys? 'Frank Bruno has a better resume than Deontay Wilder, and has achieved greater individual wins. Beating Oliver McCall is a greater win than anything on Deontay Wilder's resume. That is no disrespect to Deontay Wilder as he has been one of the great Champions of his era, but that is a objective fact of Heavyweight Boxing History' etc.

How is Joshua "More determined?" How can anyone know the level of determination in another human being? Take a mousy little girl and threaten her kid... You will see determination! But measuring this is not anymore possible than trying to determine how much a fighter is willing to put fourth in an effort. No, we have to go by behavior to make any such judgements.

Like so many Joshuastans you like to pretend that what other fighters do is not up to what Joshua does. Baloney! Fury getting up from Wilder's punch first fight was a tremendous effort. Joshua never achieved anything close... And Wilder took massive levels of abuse in their fights, again, Joshua never took anything close. You are confusing abstract long term actions with the ability a fighter has to sustain oneself in the ring under fire... two distinct sets of behavior entirely. Fury being a lush outside the ring is not the same as performing in the ring.

As far as Joshua's efforts, they have not proved extraordinary by any measure. Yet most knowleagable boxing fans will understand the extraordinary efforts put fourth by Wilder and Fury. You say Joshua got back up... Well that is not all there is to it. Joshua looked beaten entirely when he took heat from Ruiz. He also looked outclassed when pressed by Dubois. Yes he did deliver his own parting shot, but many would say a more determined fighter would have been able to weather the Dubois counter attack. And yes this is a matter of opinion but it is the reason Joshua gets called out on this.

Nobody is arguing that Joshua is a pushover. He is a fighter with limits... Again, I bring you Frank Bruno, a guy who also had a lot of talent but when pressed hard enough folded... Watch the Bruno Witherspoon fight which is even more telling than the Bruno Tyson fight. Bruno like Joshua fades at a certain point. Partially it is mental, partially it is physical. That is the knock on Joshua, not that he is not talented.

Like a typical Joshuastan you then go to rankings... "Bruno was only beaten by world champions." So what? Yes, that is the top of the food chain and if one does not have the mental and physical package to be elite, one is beaten. Joshua going through tough fighters (the same basic group as Wilder and Fury) is admirable but levels to the game. And wether the opponents are alphabet soup ranked, so called world champs, is immaterial: Fury dragged himself off the floor to get a draw at that level... Watch Marques against Pacman when he got off the canvas like 7 times to come back in a fight...

Resumes are only one criteria for greatness. Bruno's resume was never enough for him to beat the best, just like Joshua. That is a fact!

[billeau2]

If you read my previous posts, you'd see that I don't believe Joshua to be mentally weak. I was merely agreeing with one aspect of billeau2's point of him not always having that grit and determination to win. In the 1st Ruiz fight, the ref didn't stop it because Joshua was hurt, he stopped it because AJ showed no real desire to continue. As for Bruno vs Tyson 2? Yes, I watched it back then. I also watched the buildup and his appearance on David Letterman. I thought he was going to give Tyson hell, instead, he did a lot of holding and hitting while holding, until Tyson destroyed him in the 3rd round. I was very disappointed in Frank's performance.

The post you are responding to is typical Joshuastan logic:

1. If one knocks Joshua's ability to put fourth a "die in the ring" type effort at the elite level, that individual is calling Joshua untalented. The fact is, there are many wonderful fighters, like Corrie Sanders (RIP) who had flaws (Corrie did not train seriously) and great careers, who were not at the top of the food chain. Chisora, another great competitor, who never put it together at the elite level. Joshua has had his chances and has not come through, that is a fact.

2. Then excuses are made for Joshua. Sometimes for Bruno as well: "Bruno was winning his fight against Witherspoon before dropping the ball!" "Joshua was winning against Ruiz! before dropping the ball." "Joshua hit Dubois before he was knocked out" well... Dubois, if at the elite level, is just getting there and beat Joshua soundly.

3. Then subjective rankings are put fourth like they matter: "Bruno/Joshua fought WBSCDSAWWW ranked opponents! Wilder (who fought from the same pool of opposition) fought lesser opponents because the alphabets did not rank them!" Somehow this matters? Usyk has said that Fury was far and wide his toughest fight. Wilder's insane punching power can be observed... If Wilder and Fury had a major battle, and Fury and Usyk had a major battle, what does it matter whom was fought coming up?

4. A denial of what happened when Joshua stepped up. The idea that Joshua has the ability to somehow change these foibles and become a world champion. And God forbid someone points out the tendency of Joshua to respond passively, or points out that he has not shown the ability to win at the elite level.

[RingoKid]

Everyone reacts to disappointment differently. Some keep things to themselves, others act out.

Indeed! All I'm saying is, acting out is mental weakness. There's something to be said for Stoicism.

Mental strength is as much a part of a fighters arsenal as anything. Once that goes, like punch resistance, it ain't coming back.

Joshua's went when he quit in the corner vs Ruiz 1. Dubois is faking it and bottled it with the reality of facing Parker.

Hearn and Warren know that so are looking to cash them out while they can.

Karma in this instance would be if Usyk got legitimately injured in training and couldn't face Dubois and Joshua gets chinned by another cherry pick gone wrong in his next outing.

[SUBZER0ED]

The post you are responding to is typical Joshuastan logic:

1. If one knocks Joshua's ability to put fourth a "die in the ring" type effort at the elite level, that individual is calling Joshua untalented. The fact is, there are many wonderful fighters, like Corrie Sanders (RIP) who had flaws (Corrie did not train seriously) and great careers, who were not at the top of the food chain. Chisora, another great competitor, who never put it together at the elite level. Joshua has had his chances and has not come through, that is a fact.

2. Then excuses are made for Joshua. Sometimes for Bruno as well: "Bruno was winning his fight against Witherspoon before dropping the ball!" "Joshua was winning against Ruiz! before dropping the ball." "Joshua hit Dubois before he was knocked out" well... Dubois, if at the elite level, is just getting there and beat Joshua soundly.

3. Then subjective rankings are put fourth like they matter: "Bruno/Joshua fought WBSCDSAWWW ranked opponents! Wilder (who fought from the same pool of opposition) fought lesser opponents because the alphabets did not rank them!" Somehow this matters? Usyk has said that Fury was far and wide his toughest fight. Wilder's insane punching power can be observed... If Wilder and Fury had a major battle, and Fury and Usyk had a major battle, what does it matter whom was fought coming up?

4. A denial of what happened when Joshua stepped up. The idea that Joshua has the ability to somehow change these foibles and become a world champion. And God forbid someone points out the tendency of Joshua to respond passively, or points out that he has not shown the ability to win at the elite level.

The truth hurts, brother, and some simply can't stand it. They don't realize that the difference between being an elite fighter who keeps winning vs a very good fighter who keeps losing their biggest fights, is about figuring out what's missing and correcting it. "Almost winning" is losing.

[SUBZER0ED]

Indeed! All I'm saying is, acting out is mental weakness. There's something to be said for Stoicism.

Mental strength is as much a part of a fighters arsenal as anything. Once that goes, like punch resistance, it ain't coming back.

Joshua's went when he quit in the corner vs Ruiz 1. Dubois is faking it and bottled it with the reality of facing Parker.

Hearn and Warren know that so are looking to cash them out while they can.

Karma in this instance would be if Usyk got legitimately injured in training and couldn't face Dubois and Joshua gets chinned by another cherry pick gone wrong in his next outing.

I believe Joshua's confidence took a big hit when a shorter, obese fighter dropped him several times. I saw the look of disbelief on his face as he pulled himself off the canvas after the 1st knock down. I do credit him for coming back and outboxing Andy in the rematch. Of course, the variables there were Ruiz's total lack of discipline in the 6 months before the rematch, and Joshua's incorporation of technique over brute force. I think the losses to Usyk all but ruined him. Here is a smaller man with less power than him, who simply outthought and outboxed him, despite AJ's intense preparation. And for the rematch, Joshua really went back to the drawing board for Oleksander, and had some success, but still came up short. That had to really mess with his head. I think the sheer frustration, disappointment and anger from losing a second time put AJ over the edge. You say there's something to be said for stoicism and I get that. But being stoic in public doesn't mean that those type of people don't absolutely lose it behind closed doors, hollering, screaming and breaking shit. Does that make them mentally weak? Mental fortitude isn't necessarily measured accurately in the heat of the moment, unless one really does something drastic. How one responds to adversity after having time to calm down and process things, is more indicative of mental fortitude and character.

The jury's still out on Dubois. He's still young enough to have changed direction and become more ferocious. Case in point the fight vs Joshua, who was on a 4-fight winning streak with 3 stoppages. I'd love to see DDD rematch Usyk. I think he attacks him. He probably did duck Parker to avoid risking a Usyk rematch. Even if he fought Parker and won, it would likely have taken something out of him. He wants Oleksandr badly, and I think he should get another shot. Also, Usyk should want the chance to become undisputed again, quiet the nay-sayers and retire on top.

[billeau2]

The truth hurts, brother, and some simply can't stand it. They don't realize that the difference between being an elite fighter who keeps winning vs a very good fighter who keeps losing their biggest fights, is about figuring out what's missing and correcting it. "Almost winning" is losing.

Exactly. Bottom line...