Inside the Top Ten: Super Middleweight

[Dave Rado]

I can only guess the reason why. Perhaps they wanted an equal number of Americans and Europeans, and he was considered less important than AA and the belt holders.

Bute is a belt holder.

But the American/European thing is probably the reason, because Bute is officially Canadian now, and I believe they wanted to market the Ryder Cup angle. But they should be pressured to be open about it by interviewers, IMO, and to admit officially that they intentionally omitted the second most highly rated fighter in the division for no valid boxing reason.

They've been claiming that the tournament is to settle once and for all who the Super Middleweight champion is, and without Bute it simply won't do that, unless he loses in the meantime. I think they should be called on their bull**** by journalists at every press conference they give about the tournament.

[JakeNDaBox]

I don't see what Showtime would gain by leaving Bute out of the tournament purely out of spite. They've invested in his last two fights and seemed very interested in continued business with him, whereas Taylor only recently became a Showtime fighter (so to speak), after HBO decided they were through with him.

[Dave Rado]

I don't see what Showtime would gain by leaving Bute out of the tournament purely out of spite. They've invested in his last two fights and seemed very interested in continued business with him, whereas Taylor only recently became a Showtime fighter (so to speak), after HBO decided they were through with him.

I'm not suggesting it was out of spite, but I think they should be pushed to be honest about what their reason was.

As I said earlier my own guess is that they wanted 3 USA fighters and 3 Europeans so that they could market it as a Ryder Cup-like tournament; and therefore they didn't want a Canadian. I could be wrong, but I think they should be put under pressure to say what their reason was, given that they are trying to sell it as a tournament to decide who's the best fighter at the weight, and in that context, not inviting the #2 fighter makes absolutely no sense.

[BattlingNelson]

I don't see what Showtime would gain by leaving Bute out of the tournament purely out of spite. They've invested in his last two fights and seemed very interested in continued business with him, whereas Taylor only recently became a Showtime fighter (so to speak), after HBO decided they were through with him.

I think the reasoning was like this:

Kalle Sauerland was the main-brain when this tourneys concept of 3 euros vs. 3 yanks was laid out. He has 2 euro fighters in Abraham and Kessler. So the question was who should have the last spot. Bute, Froch or Balszay?

Balszay was quickly out since he was with rival Universum, so I am quite sure that both Froch and Bute got an offer. I mean why wouldn't Showtime try to include a fighter they had invested good money in and who had given them good fights? So my guess is that Bute either didn't want to commit himself for so long or simply priced himself out.

And Hennesey was probably easier to negotiate given the not-so-popular Froch has a small domestic following.

I don't put much in the fact that Showtime says that Bute didn't get an offer. I think it's a business-oriented comment. Why burn bridges?

[Mr. David]

What I read was that making it eight fighters just wouldn't be feasible for the logistics.

Here's Showtime exec Ken Hershman talking to Michael Rosenthal of RingTV.com:

RingTV.com: Do you have any regret that it’s not an eight-man tournament? As it is, you have six of the best super middleweights in the world but such capable 168-pounders as Lucian Bute and Librado Andrade are not part of the competition.

KH: No regret. We set out at the beginning when we sketched it out to look at it that way. It was just too cumbersome, too big and too drawn out for eight to work. So we had to go with a way we thought best to get it accomplished in the time frame that it needs to be completed by. There are a couple of great fighters who aren’t in this tournament but it doesn’t take anything away from the six that are in it. It doesn’t take anything away from their accomplishment if they get through the group stages and the semifinals and win this thing. That’s going to be one of the biggest accomplishments in boxing ever. I think if you look at the reaction we’ve gotten to this tournament, the reaction the fighters have gotten, the promoters, there’s no taking away from the talent those two fighters [Bute and Andrade] have, but this tournament is as strong and powerful without them as it would be with them.

RingTV.com: What was the drawback of adding two more fighters?

KH: If you add two more, just think about the mathematics of it. Two more fights means you go from 12 fights in the tournament to something like 18. So it’s exponentially that much more time, that much more money. You add two more promoters, Golden Boy and Canadian Interbox. Everything just got weighed down dramatically by adding those two fighters. It wasn’t as simple as just adding two fighters. We could’ve gotten eight fighters. We made the decision that the tournament was best constructed with six.

[Heru]

Bute's people said they were never invited to be in it, and Showtime confirmed it.

I can only guess the reason why. Perhaps they wanted an equal number of Americans and Europeans, and he was considered less important than AA and the belt holders. It's also possible that the rumours of him being unreasonable in negoations with Froch and Taylor are true. Those are just rumours though, of course.

So basically...I'm not sure. I would've preferred to have him there though.

The reason why?

I'm speculating, but I would say it's because the IBF are not like the WBA and WBC where the titlist can relax, not have to defend, and not worried about getting stripped.

There are barely any WBC mandatories being thrust upon any titleholder and most of the WBA titleholder haven't fought anyone, let alone a mandatory.

That and if they would have had 8 it would have been a single elimination tourney instead of a round robin.

[crold1]

The reason why?

I'm speculating, but I would say it's because the IBF are not like the WBA and WBC where the titlist can relax, not have to defend, and not worried about getting stripped.

There are barely any WBC mandatories being thrust upon any titleholder and most of the WBA titleholder haven't fought anyone, let alone a mandatory.

That and if they would have had 8 it would have been a single elimination tourney instead of a round robin.

The IBF is as inconsistent as anyone on this front.

On the AA question in this thread...he'll be rated soon enough. His one win of note above 60 was a catch with Miranda so I'm not sweating it. I might put someone like Floyd back in P4P before Marquez but p4P is mostly ****** and based on a lot of nonsense. Divisions actually matter and fighting in them gets one rated.

[JakeNDaBox]

I'm not suggesting it was out of spite, but I think they should be pushed to be honest about what their reason was.

As I said earlier my own guess is that they wanted 3 USA fighters and 3 Europeans so that they could market it as a Ryder Cup-like tournament; and therefore they didn't want a Canadian. I could be wrong, but I think they should be put under pressure to say what their reason was, given that they are trying to sell it as a tournament to decide who's the best fighter at the weight, and in that context, not inviting the #2 fighter makes absolutely no sense.

That might be it, but from what I remember, at the time of the tournament being announced or even worked out, a purse bid was ordered for Bute-Andrade II. As a matter of fact it was before, because I remember Schaefer belly-aching about the two being excluded from the tournament the moment it was announced.

Anyway, having Bute in the tournament would also mean having Andrade. Either that, or Bute gives up the belt.

I believe Showtime's explanation of rather doing six than eight for a round robin, especially since it was never the intention to go single elimination. That said, I agree with BattlingNelson: Showtime's remaining noncommittal to a genuine response means the two doing future business together, at least once Bute-Andrade II is out of the way. Much like their including Andre Dirrell is their way of keeping their greatest contributor, Gary Shaw, involved.

[Dave Rado]

That might be it, but from what I remember, at the time of the tournament being announced or even worked out, a purse bid was ordered for Bute-Andrade II. As a matter of fact it was before, because I remember Schaefer belly-aching about the two being excluded from the tournament the moment it was announced.

Anyway, having Bute in the tournament would also mean having Andrade. Either that, or Bute gives up the belt.

A third possibility would have been to keep one place open for the Bute-Andrade winner, which could have been treated as an eliminator.

In any case, Andrade is rated more highly than either Dirrell or Ward, so in the context of it being a tournament to settle who is the best Super-Middleweight, which Showtime claim it is, Andrade belongs more than either of those two do. So I'm pretty sure the real reason is the Ryder Cup angle.

I believe Showtime's explanation of rather doing six than eight for a round robin, especially since it was never the intention to go single elimination.

Agreed.

That said, I agree with BattlingNelson: Showtime's remaining noncommittal to a genuine response means the two doing future business together, at least once Bute-Andrade II is out of the way. Much like their including Andre Dirrell is their way of keeping their greatest contributor, Gary Shaw, involved.

I guess I just want Showtime to be pushed into admitting that while the tournament is a great idea, and will contain many great fights, it probably won't settle who is the best Super Middleweight, and that the contestants were chosen more for marketing reasons than boxing reasons. Better still, I'd like them to announce that they hope to set up a fight for all the marbles between the winner of the tournament and Bute, as long as Bute keeps winning in the meantime.

[Bhopreign]

A third possibility would have been to keep one place open for the Bute-Andrade winner, which could have been treated as an eliminator.

In any case, Andrade is rated more highly than either Dirrell or Ward, so in the context of it being a tournament to settle who is the best Super-Middleweight, which Showtime claim it is, Andrade belongs more than either of those two do. So I'm pretty sure the real reason is the Ryder Cup angle.

Only the IBF and Ring has Andrade above Ward in any rankings. I dont give much credence to the IBF because they have Miranda above Ward whom Ward already beat, I also dont give credit to Ring because Andrade is a Golden Boy fighter.