Rjj at smw - overrated?

[The D3vil]

Yeah..but...he did though. Or are you now going to argue that he didn't lose to Tiberi?

You're aware that Toney has literally admitted he lost that fight, right?



It is quite literally avenging it.

Why did you avoid the question?

Why isn't Toney's fight with Jones an "off night" like you're claiming it was with Tiberi and Thadzi?

And Holmes REALLY lost to Witherspoon & Williams, but officially they didn't.

I already showed you that against the best fighters, not named Jones, he shined, which is why he has victories over HOF fighters.

He also NEVER LOST at 168 to anyone other than Jones.

[IronDanHamza]

And Holmes REALLY lost to Witherspoon & Williams, but officially they didn't.

I already showed you that against the best fighters, not named Jones, he shined, which is why he has victories over HOF fighters.

He also NEVER LOST at 168 to anyone other than Jones.

You are not seriously comparing Holmes-Witherspoon to Toney-Tiberi That is just comical.

Are you missing the part where Toney ADMITTED he lost to Tiberi?

The government literally investigated that judges in that fight. Not even remotely comparable to either of those Larry Holmes fights.





“I already showed you that against the best fighters, not named Jones, he shined, which is why he has victories over HOF fighters.“


Ok then so AGAIN, why was his fight with Roy Jones not an “off night” then like you’re claiming it was vs Tiberi and Thadzi?

He also did not “shine” in a single one of those fights you mentioned. Not even one of them. Maybe in your fantasy world he “shined” but in reality he actually did the opposite and looked poor in all of them except McCallum 1 which he didn’t even win.

He looked terrible against Nunn, he looked even worse against Johnson, and he looked poor in the McCallum rematch aswell.

He arguably lost all of those fights you mentioned outside of Nunn which he was well behind on the cards in and was losing clearly.

The sole and only difference between those fights and the Tiberi and Thadzi fights were he got the decisions on them. It’s the literal exact same fighter.








“He also NEVER LOST at 168 to anyone other than Jones.”




Ok….AND? Why is that even 1% relevant? He drew and lost with journeyman at Middleweight which is supposed to be his best weight.

You brought up the straw man fallacy and are literally using one there multiple times.

Also, if he never lost to anyone at 168 other than Jones then why wasn’t Jones an “off night?”

He didn’t lose to anyone at Middleweight either other than Tiberi. So, why do you deem that an “off night” and not the Jones fight?

[The D3vil]

You are not seriously comparing Holmes-Witherspoon to Toney-Tiberi That is just comical.

Are you missing the part where Toney ADMITTED he lost to Tiberi?

The government literally investigated that judges in that fight. Not even remotely comparable to either of those Larry Holmes fights.





“I already showed you that against the best fighters, not named Jones, he shined, which is why he has victories over HOF fighters.“


Ok then so AGAIN, why was his fight with Roy Jones not an “off night” then like you’re claiming it was vs Tiberi and Thadzi?

He also did not “shine” in a single one of those fights you mentioned. Not even one of them. Maybe in your fantasy world he “shined” but in reality he actually did the opposite and looked poor in all of them except McCallum 1 which he didn’t even win.

He looked terrible against Nunn, he looked even worse against Johnson, and he looked poor in the McCallum rematch aswell.

He arguably lost all of those fights you mentioned outside of Nunn which he was well behind on the cards in and was losing clearly.

The sole and only difference between those fights and the Tiberi and Thadzi fights were he got the decisions on them. It’s the literal exact same fighter.








“He also NEVER LOST at 168 to anyone other than Jones.”




Ok….AND? Why is that even 1% relevant? He drew and lost with journeyman at Middleweight which is supposed to be his best weight.

You brought up the straw man fallacy and are literally using one there multiple times.

Also, if he never lost to anyone at 168 other than Jones then why wasn’t Jones an “off night?”

He didn’t lose to anyone at Middleweight either other than Tiberi. So, why do you deem that an “off night” and not the Jones fight?

Dude, you just seem to be arguing to be arguing.

I never said 160 was his best weight.

I'd argue it was 168, as he won every fight, but the Jones one at that weight.

And now you're pretending that weight classes don't matter?

He was famous for gaining a lot of weight between fights. Maybe he cut it too close before the Tiberi fight.

He beat a MUCH BETTER fighter in Mike McCallum right after that.

Is Mike McCallum ass because he lost to a fighter who almost lost to Dave Tiberi?

And who cares if he admits he lost. That's not what the OFFICIAL scorecards say.

You seem to only care what the official scorecards say when it fits YOUR point.

He didn't lose even though most people think he did.

Most people think Holmes lost to Williams, but because Holmes was DELUSIONAL enough to say he won, that makes it better?

Just stop.

Toney's in the HOF for a reason & it's not because he had more off-nights than on nights.

It's because he was a great fighter, most of the time, especially against TOP FIGHTERS.

Even as a fat old guy at Cruiserweight & Heavyweight, he still showed up in the biggest fights against Holyfield & Jirov because those were fights that mattered.

[IronDanHamza]

Dude, you just seem to be arguing to be arguing.

I’m not arguing to argue I am directly responding to your incorrect statement. I’m not sure you understand what the terminology you use means.

I never said 160 was his best weight.

I'd argue it was 168, as he won every fight, but the Jones one at that weight.

What you think is irrelevant.

The vast majority of people would say his best weight was Middleweight. So your point makes no sense because he was beaten easily by an unranked journeyman at his best weight, thus the point.

And now you're pretending that weight classes don't matter?

Never once said that.

He was famous for gaining a lot of weight between fights. Maybe he cut it too close before the Tiberi fight.

Oh really? You mean the literal EXACT excuse that he and all his moronic fans use for why he was dominated by Roy Jones? You can't even be serious at this point.

Also, for you to say that about the Tiberi fight is baseless. And, if his fight with Tiberi was an "off night" like you're trying to claim then why wasn't his fight with Roy Jones and off night? That's the 4th time of asking now.

He beat a MUCH BETTER fighter in Mike McCallum right after that.

Is Mike McCallum ass because he lost to a fighter who almost lost to Dave Tiberi?

And who cares if he admits he lost. That's not what the OFFICIAL scorecards say.

You seem to only care what the official scorecards say when it fits YOUR point.

He didn't lose even though most people think he did.

Most people think Holmes lost to Williams, but because Holmes was DELUSIONAL enough to say he won, that makes it better?

Just stop.

The official scorecards are irrelevant when it’s a clear as day robbery like Tiberi was. Nothing alike to either of those Holmes fights at all.

Yes he beat McCallum after that, arguably lost that fight but yes he won. And? How does that change the fact he was beaten clearly by Tiberi? It doesn’t, hence why what Roy Jones did wasn’t unique which was the falsehood you were trying to push.

Toney's in the HOF for a reason & it's not because he had more off-nights than on nights.

It's because he was a great fighter, most of the time, especially against TOP FIGHTERS.

Even as a fat old guy at Cruiserweight & Heavyweight, he still showed up in the biggest fights against Holyfield & Jirov because those were fights that mattered.

Toney is a HOF’er yes, second ballot, not first Ballot. Is there a point there, or?

What you are saying is literally the opposite of reality James Toney doesn't even have a single dominant win over a top fighter. He struggled and/or arguably lost to every single one he faced. Which the exact reason why he's not a great fighter, and not a First Ballot HOF'er.

The fact of the matter is what Roy Jones was not unique. It’s really just as simple as that. James Toney was beaten easily MULTIPLE times in his prime both before and after he was beaten easily by Jones. That is just a fact. Any excuse you can use for why he lost those fights you can use for the Roy Jones fight.

[The D3vil]

I’m not arguing to argue I am directly responding to your incorrect statement. I’m not sure you understand what the terminology you use means.



What you think is irrelevant.

The vast majority of people would say his best weight was Middleweight. So your point makes no sense because he was beaten easily by an unranked journeyman at his best weight, thus the point.




Never once said that.



Oh really? You mean the literal EXACT excuse that he and all his moronic fans use for why he was dominated by Roy Jones? You can't even be serious at this point.

Also, for you to say that about the Tiberi fight is baseless. And, if his fight with Tiberi was an "off night" like you're trying to claim then why wasn't his fight with Roy Jones and off night? That's the 4th time of asking now.




The official scorecards are irrelevant when it’s a clear as day robbery like Tiberi was. Nothing alike to either of those Holmes fights at all.

Yes he beat McCallum after that, arguably lost that fight but yes he won. And? How does that change the fact he was beaten clearly by Tiberi? It doesn’t, hence why what Roy Jones did wasn’t unique which was the falsehood you were trying to push.







Toney is a HOF’er yes, second ballot, not first Ballot. Is there a point there, or?

What you are saying is literally the opposite of reality James Toney doesn't even have a single dominant win over a top fighter. He struggled and/or arguably lost to every single one he faced. Which the exact reason why he's not a great fighter, and not a First Ballot HOF'er.

The fact of the matter is what Roy Jones was not unique. It’s really just as simple as that. James Toney was beaten easily MULTIPLE times in his prime both before and after he was beaten easily by Jones. That is just a fact. Any excuse you can use for why he lost those fights you can use for the Roy Jones fight.

I aint even read that, bro.

I'm sick of arguing with you that beating a guy who's technically undefeated and rated top 3 P4P in the world by the most respected magazine in the world isn't an accomplishment.

You wanna make that argument?

Make it to yourself.

[IronDanHamza]

I aint even read that, bro.

Yeah because you don't have a response, that's why.

I'm sick of arguing with you that beating a guy who's technically undefeated and rated top 3 P4P in the world by the most respected ****zine in the world isn't an accomplishment.

You wanna make that argument?

Make it to yourself.

I never said it wasn't an accomplishment. If you actually read, I actually said it was an impressive accomplishment. The literal opposite of what you're implying I said.

I said what Roy Jones did wasn't unique, because Toney was beaten easily, in his prime, both before and after Roy Jones did the same thing.

Making your statement of; "Did you see what he did to the 44-0, top 3 in the world James Toney?" non sensical because Dave Tiberi did the exact same thing essentially.

Thus, the entire point, that seems to be eluding you.