Rjj at smw - overrated?

[The D3vil]

Nah, not quite.

Both of those fights you've just listed for Duran were fights where he was well beyond his prime and in his 3rd official weight class but 7 above where he started his career, by today's standard.

James Toney drew, and was beaten easily by unranked journeyman, in his prime. So, nothing alike really.

Again, if you use that excuse then why was he not down for the Roy Jones fight? It's either one of the other. Dave Tiberi beat the same version of Toney that Roy Jones did. Some argue that a better version since 160 is meant to be his best weight class.

Beating Toney in his prime was an impressive win yes but not unique as previously stated, journeyman did it.

Dave Tiberi fought Toney 2 years earlier in a totally different weight class

Toney only lost to Roy Jones at 168.

His record at 168 was 10-1

Nobody beat him at 168 other than Jones.

Those other fights were years before or after & in totally different weight classes

[IronDanHamza]

Dave Tiberi fought Toney 2 years earlier in a totally different weight class

Toney only lost to Roy Jones at 168.

His record at 168 was 10-1

Nobody beat him at 168 other than Jones.

Those other fights were years before or after & in totally different weight classes

Ok. And?

Isn’t Middleweight meant to be Toney’s best weight class according to his deluded fans?

Isn’t the literal excuse that is given none stop for why Toney lost to Jones because he was weight drained at 168?

What are you saying here? That Toney was only good at 168? That’s comical as again that is the literal excuse given to why he lost to Jones That he was dead at the weight

The fact of the matter is that unranked journeyman beat Toney in his prime. It’s just as simple as that.

[The D3vil]

Ok. And?

Isn’t Middleweight meant to be Toney’s best weight class according to his deluded fans?

Isn’t the literal excuse that is given none stop for why Toney lost to Jones because he was weight drained at 168?

What are you saying here? That Toney was only good at 168? That’s comical as again that is the literal excuse given to why he lost to Jones That he was dead at the weight

The fact of the matter is that unranked journeyman beat Toney in his prime. It’s just as simple as that.

Guy, you're making a strawman argument, here

I never said what was Toney's "best weight class"

I said he was a P4P rated guy & technically undefeated at that point.

Plenty of people think Larry Holmes lost to Carl "The Truth" Williams & Tim Witherspoon, that doesn't mean that when Spinks finally beat him officially that it was "no big deal"

Toney beat Dave Tiberi officially, so when Jones beat him, he was a top 3 ranked fighter in the world.

He beat Michael Nunn when Michael Nunn was P4P

He drew with & beat HOF Mike McCallum when he was 42-1 & one of the most feared men in boxing.

What are you saying, Nunn & McCallum & Reggie Johnson who was a good fighter that Toney beat, were chopped liver?

Are you saying Dave Tiberi is better than them?

Or, maybe, just maybe JT had a history of fighting up or down to his competition.

He came to fight in big fights & often would not train well for fights against guys he didn't respect.

[IronDanHamza]

Guy, you're making a strawman argument, here

I never said what was Toney's "best weight class"

I said he was a P4P rated guy & technically undefeated at that point.

Plenty of people think Larry Holmes lost to Carl "The Truth" Williams & Tim Witherspoon, that doesn't mean that when Spinks finally beat him officially that it was "no big deal"

Toney beat Dave Tiberi officially, so when Jones beat him, he was a top 3 ranked fighter in the world.

He beat Michael Nunn when Michael Nunn was P4P

He drew with & beat HOF Mike McCallum when he was 42-1 & one of the most feared men in boxing.

What are you saying, Nunn & McCallum & Reggie Johnson who was a good fighter that Toney beat, were chopped liver?

Are you saying Dave Tiberi is better than them?

Or, maybe, just maybe JT had a history of fighting up or down to his competition.

He came to fight in big fights & often would not train well for fights against guys he didn't respect.

That’s not a strawman argument. A strawman argument would be narrowing down the fact Jones beating Toney at Super Middleweight makes any kind of difference between the one who lost to journeyman at Middleweight and Light Heavyweight when there is zero difference between them.

So firstly every fight you just listed outside of Nunn; Mcallum x2 and Johnson he arguably lost. And then the Nunn fight he was losing wide before the KO. So, doesn’t really strengthen your argument in any way.

The verison of Toney who fought them, is the exact same one who drew and lost to unranked journeyman, and also the exact same one who was totally dominated by Roy Jones. Thus the point. That’s it’s not a unique thing to do.

You’re now again using a fallacy argument by saying “he fought to his level of opponent” and “He came to fight in big fights & often would not train well for fights against guys he didn't respect” when that is LITERALLY the exact opposite for the excuses given as to why he was dominated by Roy Jones. How do you reconcile that?

It also makes no sense because again he arguably lost to all of those fighters you listed, outside of Nunn, a fight he was getting easily beaten in. So your argument doesn’t make sense, and isn’t based in any kind of reality.

[The D3vil]

That’s not a strawman argument. A strawman argument would be narrowing down the fact Jones beating Toney at Super Middleweight makes any kind of difference between the one who lost to journeyman at Middleweight and Light Heavyweight when there is zero difference between them.

So firstly every fight you just listed outside of Nunn; Mcallum x2 and Johnson he arguably lost. And then the Nunn fight he was losing wide before the KO. So, doesn’t really strengthen your argument in any way.

The verison of Toney who fought them, is the exact same one who drew and lost to unranked journeyman, and also the exact same one who was totally dominated by Roy Jones. Thus the point. That’s it’s not a unique thing to do.

You’re now again using a fallacy argument by saying “he fought to his level of opponent” and “He came to fight in big fights & often would not train well for fights against guys he didn't respect” when that is LITERALLY the exact opposite for the excuses given as to why he was dominated by Roy Jones. How do you reconcile that?

It also makes no sense because again he arguably lost to all of those fighters you listed, outside of Nunn, a fight he was getting easily beaten in. So your argument doesn’t make sense, and isn’t based in any kind of reality.

So, what is your argument?

That Dave Tiberi is better than Nunn, McCallum, & Johnson?

Do you think Dave Tiberi would've beat any of them at that point?

If Toney's such chopped liver how does he beat HOF fighters?

Who cares if he was losing to Nunn?

Joe Louis was losing to Billy Conn before knocking him out.

Pernell Whittaker was losing to Diosbelys Hurtado before knocking him out.

Again, this happens all of the time in boxing. The GREAT fighters often find a way to win when they arguably shouldn't.

Fact is Toney is a HOF fighter, who beat HOF & highly ranked fighters from the time he was in his early 20s into his mid 30s.

And won belts between 160-190, in spite of only being 5'9"

You devalue Michael Nunn, Roy Jones, Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum, Prince Charles Williams, and the champions he fought by acting like the only things that matter are his off-nights.

[IronDanHamza]

So, what is your argument?

That Dave Tiberi is better than Nunn, McCallum, & Johnson?

Do you think Dave Tiberi would've beat any of them at that point?

If Toney's such chopped liver how does he beat HOF fighters?

Who cares if he was losing to Nunn?

Joe Louis was losing to Billy Conn before knocking him out.

Pernell Whittaker was losing to Diosbelys Hurtado before knocking him out.

Again, this happens all of the time in boxing. The GREAT fighters often find a way to win when they arguably shouldn't.

Fact is Toney is a HOF fighter, who beat HOF & highly ranked fighters from the time he was in his early 20s into his mid 30s.

And won belts between 160-190, in spite of only being 5'9"

You devalue Michael Nunn, Roy Jones, Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum, Prince Charles Williams, and the champions he fought by acting like the only things that matter are his off-nights.

My point is and has been clear from the start; Beating a prime James Toney is not unique because unranked journeyman did it. Made that abundantly clear.

Your counter (fallacy) argument to that is that “He came to fight in big fights & often would not train well for fights against guys he didn't respect.“ Which is non sensical because those are the exact excuses given for why he was dominated by Roy Jones and arguably lost to every fighter you listed.

So that’s those points covered.

As for the rest;

I never said Toney was “chopped liver”. That’s another fallacy argument you’ve attempted to make again. Toney was a good fighter (not great) and a HOF’er (not first ballot) and beating him deserves credit, sure. But unranked journeyman beat him in his prime, and easily by the way. So what Roy Jones did whilst impressive, is not as impressive as you are trying to make out.

He didn’t win belts from 160-190 either, because he didn’t win a belt at 175. So that’s incorrect.

You’ve again reverted to a fallacy argument, by claiming Tiberi and Thadzi and Williams and Sosa and all the other unranked fighters he either drew, lost, or struggled with were “off nights” when they weren’t. It’s all the same fighter, that’s his level. James Toney doesn’t hold a single dominant performance against a Top opponent, there is a reason for that and that’s also the same reason why he lost and struggled with unranked fighters multiple times in his prime.

[The D3vil]

My point is and has been clear from the start; Beating a prime James Toney is not unique because unranked journeyman did it. Made that abundantly clear.

Your counter (fallacy) argument to that is that “He came to fight in big fights & often would not train well for fights against guys he didn't respect.“ Which is non sensical because those are the exact excuses given for why he was dominated by Roy Jones and arguably lost to every fighter you listed.

So that’s those points covered.

As for the rest;

I never said Toney was “chopped liver”. That’s another fallacy argument you’ve attempted to make again. Toney was a good fighter (not great) and a HOF’er (not first ballot) and beating him deserves credit, sure. But unranked journeyman beat him in his prime, and easily by the way. So what Roy Jones did whilst impressive, is not as impressive as you are trying to make out.

He didn’t win belts from 160-190 either, because he didn’t win a belt at 175. So that’s incorrect.

You’ve again reverted to a fallacy argument, by claiming Tiberi and Thadzi and Williams and Sosa and all the other unranked fighters he either drew, lost, or struggled with were “off nights” when they weren’t. It’s all the same fighter, that’s his level. James Toney doesn’t hold a single dominant performance against a Top opponent, there is a reason for that and that’s also the same reason why he lost and struggled with unranked fighters multiple times in his prime.

I didn't say he won belts in every weight class

I said he won belts between 160-190.

Roy Jones won belts between 160-200, even though he skipped Cruiser.

So, by your logic, beating somebody who beat P4P rated Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, & Reggie Johnson, who was a 2-division, unified champ isn't that impressive because he had some off-nights against some guys.

Cool, beating Larry Holmes not a big deal because he had some off nights against Carl Williams & Tim Witherspoon.

Beating Lennox Lewis aint that big a deal because he lost to Hassim Rahman & Oliver McCall & journeyman Ray Mercer, who most people think beat him.

Let's define everybody by their off-nights.

[IronDanHamza]

I didn't say he won belts in every weight class

I said he won belts between 160-190.

So say what happened then, that he won belts in 3 weight classes.

So, by your logic, beating somebody who beat P4P rated Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, & Reggie Johnson, who was a 2-division, unified champ isn't that impressive because he had some off-nights against some guys.

You're again using a fallacy argument that the version of Toney who fought Tiberi and Thadzi is different to the versions who fought Nunn, McCallum and Johsnon and had an "off night" in those fights when it's not, it's the same.

Why didn't he have an "off night" vs Jones if that's the case? That's the pathetic excuse that's normally used by his moronic fans to add to the other 100 or so.

Cool, beating Larry Holmes not a big deal because he had some off nights against Carl Williams & Tim Witherspoon.

Beating Lennox Lewis aint that big a deal because he lost to Hassim Rahman & Oliver McCall & journeyman Ray Mercer, who most people think beat him.

Let's define everybody by their off-nights.

Well Larry Holmes didn't draw or lose to either of those so that comparison doesn't work.

And Lewis avenged his loss's to those fighters unlike Toney so that comparison doesn't work either.

I'll ask it again since you want to use this "off night" excuse. Why wasn't his fight with Jones an off night?

[The D3vil]

So say what happened then, that he won belts in 3 weight classes.




You're again using a fallacy argument that the version of Toney who fought Tiberi and Thadzi is different to the versions who fought Nunn, McCallum and Johsnon and had an "off night" in those fights when it's not, it's the same.

Why didn't he have an "off night" vs Jones if that's the case? That's the pathetic excuse that's normally used by his moronic fans to add to the other 100 or so.



Well Larry Holmes didn't draw or lose to either of those so that comparison doesn't work.

And Lewis avenged his loss's to those fighters unlike Toney so that comparison doesn't work either.

I'll ask it again since you want to use this "off night" excuse. Why wasn't his fight with Jones an off night?

Toney didn't lose to Dave Tiberi, so what's your point?

And Oliver McCall having a literal nervous breakdown in the ring because Don King forced him out of rehab to fight against his will, isn't really avenging, is it?

[IronDanHamza]

Toney didn't lose to Dave Tiberi, so what's your point?

Yeah..but...he did though. Or are you now going to argue that he didn't lose to Tiberi?

You're aware that Toney has literally admitted he lost that fight, right?

And Oliver McCall having a literal nervous breakdown in the ring because Don King forced him out of rehab to fight against his will, isn't really avenging, is it?

It is quite literally avenging it.

Why did you avoid the question?

Why isn't Toney's fight with Jones an "off night" like you're claiming it was with Tiberi and Thadzi?