The Gradual Extinction of the great American Heavyweight

[crimsonfalcon07]

So what you are saying is that the standard of athlete in the NFL/NBA is so poor, that the guys playing in it are not naturally gifted in those sports, they are just big, all round athletes that could be pretty good at any sport they picked?

Thats basically what that argument is saying.

I disagree and I think the guys at the top end in those sports are specialists who are naturally gifted and have attributes that shine in those particular sports.

I do not think you could get 10 year old LeBron James and turn him into the heavyweight champion, he's a natural at basketball, he's probably not a natural at boxing, and at heavyweight if you aren't a natural you will get chinned by a fat blob like Andy Ruiz no matter what sort of athletic shape you are in.

Andy Ruiz would put LeBron in the hospital. And any nfl player as well.

Get one of those 450lb ripped to shreds 100 meters in 6 seconds nfl guys and put them in the ring with Andy Ruiz and they will get sent to the shadow realm

This is silly. If those guys had put the same time into training boxing that they did into training the sports they chose, they would be good. You're pretending like there's some sort of natural talent that supersedes time in the gym.

Deontay Wilder managed to become a world champion with more defenses than the rest of the current champs combined, albeit cherry picking, and he didn't even start boxing until he was 20, and he's not that good at it.

Andy Ruiz had his first fight when he was 7. If you put him up against someone who's bigger, more athletic, and has more work ethic, and give them the same amount of time training boxing that they've spent training football, Andy gets smashed. Anthony Joshua is a prime example. He didn't start boxing until age 18. He was doing football and track. Even with a late start he still became one of the top heavyweight champions. But he still lost to Usyk, who started out in soccer and started boxing at 15. What if those top athletes started in boxing the whole time?

[Willow The Wisp]

So what you are saying is that the standard of athlete in the NFL/NBA is so poor, that the guys playing in it are not naturally gifted in those sports, they are just big, all round athletes that could be pretty good at any sport they picked?

Thats basically what that argument is saying.

I disagree and I think the guys at the top end in those sports are specialists who are naturally gifted and have attributes that shine in those particular sports.

I do not think you could get 10 year old LeBron James and turn him into the heavyweight champion, he's a natural at basketball, he's probably not a natural at boxing, and at heavyweight if you aren't a natural you will get chinned by a fat blob like Andy Ruiz no matter what sort of athletic shape you are in.

Andy Ruiz would put LeBron in the hospital. And any nfl player as well.

Get one of those 450lb ripped to shreds 100 meters in 6 seconds nfl guys and put them in the ring with Andy Ruiz and they will get sent to the shadow realm

Absolutely! I don't see why people have trouble grasping this. You're great at Football? Good for you. No greater bearing on how good you can fight any more than your eye color. Ask Shannon Briggs; he beat up a room full of em'.

[Willow The Wisp]

This is silly. If those guys had put the same time into training boxing that they did into training the sports they chose, they would be good. You're pretending like there's some sort of natural talent that supersedes time in the gym.

Deontay Wilder managed to become a world champion with more defenses than the rest of the current champs combined, albeit cherry picking, and he didn't even start boxing until he was 20, and he's not that good at it.

Andy Ruiz had his first fight when he was 7. If you put him up against someone who's bigger, more athletic, and has more work ethic, and give them the same amount of time training boxing that they've spent training football, Andy gets smashed. Anthony Joshua is a prime example. He didn't start boxing until age 18. He was doing football and track. Even with a late start he still became one of the top heavyweight champions. But he still lost to Usyk, who started out in soccer and started boxing at 15. What if those top athletes started in boxing the whole time?

Negative.
Wilder would knock an entire team out cold if you give him a week to do it.

Those are "Mary sports" compared to boxing, and excessive weight training gives you a glass jaw. Too tight.

[Willow The Wisp]

Simple. Most large athletic American men will choose to pursue a more popular and lucrative sport when given the choice. If boxing were more popular than football and basketball then I bet Americans would be all over the heavyweight division.

https://*********.com/who-says-boxing-is-dead/129354

By Karl Freitag

Hardcore boxing fans tend to gnash their teeth at the recent spate of exhibitions featuring former boxing legends, MMA fighters competing in boxing matches, combination boxing/Verzuz events, and Internet “influencers” squaring off in the ring. But there is a very bright side.

In the most recent Harris Poll, boxing now ranks as the fourth most-popular sport in the United States, behind only football, baseball, and basketball. And ahead of MMA. Ahead of ice hockey. Ahead of soccer. Ahead of tennis. Ahead of golf.

This is rather startling considering boxing wasn’t even in the top ten previously. And perhaps even more shocking is the fact that boxing is no longer just your grandfather’s favorite sport. Young people are flocking to the sweet science, even preferring boxing to baseball!

[crimsonfalcon07]

Negative.
Wilder would knock an entire team out cold if you give him a week to do it.

Those are "Mary sports" compared to boxing, and excessive weight training gives you a glass jaw. Too tight.

You are saying just drop a football player into a boxing match. I'm saying if they started as kids when they started playing football, and did boxing instead, they'd be very competitive. Time in training matters more than some nonsense about being good at it naturally. Most of the aspects of any combat sport can be trained. There's very little that's not trainable, and there's guys who don't have crazy knockout power who have still been able to reach the upper echelons of the sport with dedication and skill.

[Willow The Wisp]

Not always the case. Only few can be placed in that category. How many times did Ruiz call out Wilder, even invoked "we're in the same organization," should be easy to make. Then you have the Charlo brothers who got plenty of fights to take in their own PBC backyard, yet they'd rather take long layoffs.

I recall that it was Wilder doing everything possible to lure Ruiz into the ring.

[Willow The Wisp]

You are saying just drop a football player into a boxing match. I'm saying if they started as kids when they started playing football, and did boxing instead, they'd be very competitive. Time in training matters more than some nonsense about being good at it naturally. Most of the aspects of any combat sport can be trained. There's very little that's not trainable, and there's guys who don't have crazy knockout power who have still been able to reach the upper echelons of the sport with dedication and skill.

A lot of supposition built into this.
Mark Gastineau was the baddest man in the NFL and took plenty of time to train boxing, but lacked the athletic properties needed to become a good fighter.
To project how he might have done if he'd started training from age 12 is a standard of guesswork that is too rich for my blood.

It's irrelevant anyway, to suspect that America's best heavyweights are embedded in the rosters of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.
Those sports take a very small number off the top; a very small percent; a the performance in the ring of those who got cut and tried boxing doesn't make anyone think twice.

Frankly, if I assemble a team of bikers, bouncers and badasses and you had your pick to assemble your own team from the field sports, and we could train them all in boxing for 5 years each, I'd favor my chances.

I'll take a natural fighter over a hardbody who can run, jump and lift any day. No oxygen on the sidelines in this jam.

[brettWall]

I recall that it was Wilder doing everything possible to lure Ruiz into the ring.

Oh okay. So it's the fighters, not the "organizations." You just confirmed the point I made. It's almost always the fighters, and not really the "uncollaborative promotions" the previous poster was suggesting.

[Smash]

im sure it will be like waiting at your bus stop for ages and ages & then 3 come along in a row

[crimsonfalcon07]

A lot of supposition built into this.
Mark Gastineau was the baddest man in the NFL and took plenty of time to train boxing, but lacked the athletic properties needed to become a good fighter.
To project how he might have done if he'd started training from age 12 is a standard of guesswork that is too rich for my blood.

It's irrelevant anyway, to suspect that America's best heavyweights are embedded in the rosters of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.
Those sports take a very small number off the top; a very small percent; a the performance in the ring of those who got cut and tried boxing doesn't make anyone think twice.

Frankly, if I assemble a team of bikers, bouncers and badasses and you had your pick to assemble your own team from the field sports, and we could train them all in boxing for 5 years each, I'd favor my chances.

I'll take a natural fighter over a hardbody who can run, jump and lift any day. No oxygen on the sidelines in this jam.

I'm not convinced that the "natural fighter" bit is that big of a deal. I've trained several people who were pretty clearly not natural fighters, who then went on to win valor medals in combat. Military is full of those sorts of people. And there are plenty of guys who are natural killers who would get absolutely wrecked in a boxing ring absent the time put in the gym to hone the craft. Remember, I'm talking about getting them young, when they first got interested in their sports. The guys who have the tenacity and determination to make it in the major pro sports would absolutely be competitive. I'll take the guys who have the ability to learn and put in the grind and be dedicated and succeed at the top tier of their chosen sports any day.