Comments Thread For: Devastating Anthony Joshua Wipes Out Francis Ngannou in Two Rounds

[Willow The Wisp]

He was never a huge star in the UFC though. He main evented 3 PPVs in 6+ years in a company with monthly PPV.

The UFC is a little weak on starpower right now but its not like Ngannou was a big difference maker in that.



He was nearly 8 years into his MMA career when he became champion, got his first title shot years earlier and failed that time largely due to his lack of wrestling defence, which was clearly improved when he eventually did win the title. His last UFC fight and only ever title defence was him using wrestling because he found himself in a rare instance of being outstruck too. So its fair to say he trained wrestling plenty, especially once he got to a certain point where he knew his striking game was more dangerous than everyone elses and his biggest weakness would be getting taken down.

He went to the floor against Gane because he blew out his knee.
His grappling is relatively poor for UFC standards. but his Boxing + takedown defense was such that none of the terrific grapplers he faced could do a thing with him.
Stipe also has boxing in his background.

[TheCell8]

Better fight? Yes. Better performance against Klitschko? Not even close. Fury aced an active sitting champion and ripped his belts away from him with ease, then sang (poorly). AJ, in one of the great battles of the era, went life and death with a retired, combacking ex-champion, and for this task, received belts that belonged to Fury, not Klitschko or Joshua.
Thats the history.

Important to note that Klitschko, Fury and Joshua are all amoung the 5 best heavyweights of a grand era of heavyweights. Bigger, stronger and more modern than all of their predecessors.

Calling it "life and death" is embarrassing. He won every round except maybe two rounds (including the got hurt) and dropped. He recovered nicely and stopped Wlad in 11th.

The Fury-Wlad was an embarrassment to the sport.

You combine that fight with the Ngannou and Wallin fights and it's not even close. AJ has been the far superior performer in the ring.

[TMLT87]

He went to the floor against Gane because he blew out his knee.
His grappling is relatively poor for UFC standards. but his Boxing + takedown defense was such that none of the terrific grapplers he faced could do a thing with him.
Stipe also has boxing in his background.

Hes got below average grappling (offence wise at least) but below average grappling is not the same as zero grappling.

He didnt face many terrific grapplers either, or even many good ones. The closest he got was Stipe and Blaydes, and Stipe beat him when he wasnt 39, and (you alluded to his boxing background, presumably most people arent aware of it, he even fought Jennings in the ammys) outboxed him as well.

Ngannou and Stipe before him both benefitted a lot from being in a weak HW era. Not that they arent very good fighters. But I wouldnt favour them to be champs in early 10s UFC or mid 00s Pride or to win the Strikeforce HW GP.

[Willow The Wisp]

Hes got below average grappling (offence wise at least) but below average grappling is not the same as zero grappling.

He didnt face many terrific grapplers either, or even many good ones. The closest he got was Stipe and Blaydes, and Stipe beat him when he wasnt 39, and (you alluded to his boxing background, presumably most people arent aware of it, he even fought Jennings in the ammys) outboxed him as well.

Ngannou and Stipe before him both benefitted a lot from being in a weak HW era. Not that they arent very good fighters. But I wouldnt favour them to be champs in early 10s UFC or mid 00s Pride or to win the Strikeforce HW GP.

As much as I enjoy your postings, I can't agree with you here. I am bound to the facts.
Curtis Blaydes, a NJCAA National Champion Wrestler.

Anthony Hamilton, a NJCAA All-American in wrestling.

Andrei Arlovski, World Sambo Championship medalist.

Cain Velasquez, National NJCAA Wrestling Champion and NCAA All-American.

Junior Dos Santos, Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu under Yuri Carlton.

Stipe Miocic, NCAA Division I wrestler at Cleveland State University.

Luis Henrique, Member, Brazilian national wrestling team.


Ngannou's record, his wins over UFC champions, his dominance level and his success vs failure rate against top level heavyweights is 2nd to none. His record against superb grapplers is enough to demonstrate his uncanny ability to thwart them all at the highest level with his Boxing+TD defense.

[TMLT87]

As much as I enjoy your postings, I can't agree with you here. I am bound to the facts.
Curtis Blaydes, a NJCAA National Champion Wrestler.

Anthony Hamilton, a NJCAA All-American in wrestling.

Andrei Arlovski, World Sambo Championship medalist.

Cain Velasquez, National NJCAA Wrestling Champion and NCAA All-American.

Junior Dos Santos, Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu under Yuri Carlton.

Stipe Miocic, NCAA Division I wrestler at Cleveland State University.

Luis Henrique, Member, Brazilian national wrestling team.


Ngannou's record, his wins over UFC champions, his dominance level and his success vs failure rate against top level heavyweights is 2nd to none. His record against superb grapplers is enough to demonstrate his uncanny ability to thwart them all at the highest level with his Boxing+TD defense.

Arlovski was primarily a boxer, and like a ****ing DECADE out of his prime. He was a relic of UFCs HW division circa 2005.

JDS was basically Ngannou before Ngannou, a heavy handed athletic boxer. And again, many years past his prime. The Cain trilogy took years off his life and that ended almost 6 years before Ngannou fought him.

Cain WAS a great wrestler, but once again, YEARS past his prime (noticing a trend here?) and hadnt fought in almost 3 years. Notoriously injury prone and literally injured himself vs Ngannou when he shot for a takedown which is what lost him the fight.

Stipe beat him the first time, then after another 3+ more years of working on his takedown defence and with Stipe being 39 years old and beaten down from the gruelling DC trilogy Ngannou won the rematch.

Hamilton and Henrique were random bums who lost more than they won in the UFC.

I'll give you Blaydes, he was a solid wrestler and in his prime, but hes known for his terrible fight IQ and has managed to **** the bed against not only Ngannou but also Lewis and Pav, all guys he on paper has the tools to beat. He was also getting ragdolled 90% of that Jailton (who is an actual genuine high level grappler) fight just now until he pulled a rabbit out of a hat.

Like I said, Ngannou and Stipe both benefitted from being in a weak HW era. Put Ngannou in with prime DC, Cain, Fedor, Barnett, Brock, Mir, Werdum, Nog etc and then we can conclude how well he deals with high level grapplers. Even on a striking level it would have been interesting to have seen him vs actual prime 2011ish versions of Reem and JDS, or Carwin, or Pride era Cro Cop, Kharitanov and Schilt.

[Willow The Wisp]

Arlovski was primarily a boxer, and like a ****ing DECADE out of his prime. He was a relic of UFCs HW division circa 2005.

JDS was basically Ngannou before Ngannou, a heavy handed athletic boxer. And again, many years past his prime. The Cain trilogy took years off his life and that ended almost 6 years before Ngannou fought him.

Cain WAS a great wrestler, but once again, YEARS past his prime (noticing a trend here?) and hadnt fought in almost 3 years. Notoriously injury prone and literally injured himself vs Ngannou when he shot for a takedown which is what lost him the fight.

Stipe beat him the first time, then after another 3+ more years of working on his takedown defence and with Stipe being 39 years old and beaten down from the gruelling DC trilogy Ngannou won the rematch.

Hamilton and Henrique were random bums who lost more than they won in the UFC.

I'll give you Blaydes, he was a solid wrestler and in his prime, but hes known for his terrible fight IQ and has managed to **** the bed against not only Ngannou but also Lewis and Pav, all guys he on paper has the tools to beat. He was also getting ragdolled 90% of that Jailton (who is an actual genuine high level grappler) fight just now until he pulled a rabbit out of a hat.

Like I said, Ngannou and Stipe both benefitted from being in a weak HW era. Put Ngannou in with prime DC, Cain, Fedor, Barnett, Brock, Mir, Werdum, Nog etc and then we can conclude how well he deals with high level grapplers. Even on a striking level it would have been interesting to have seen him vs actual prime 2011ish versions of Reem and JDS, or Carwin, or Pride era Cro Cop, Kharitanov and Schilt.

All valid points (to establish support for the disparaging of an MMA reprsentitive's failure v. A boxer, ala Tim Sylvia a decade ago) regarding age and ring wear (I seldom debate), but those are some of the best heavyweights in MMA History that Ngannou was feasting on (a universally embraced sentiment), and the top guys in the UFC rankings when he fought them. Indeed, with the possible exception of Fedor in the post-pioneer period, Ngannou's was the cleanest sweep of the heavyweight division ever.

But there's also a broader question here, used as my response; which I'll break down into two adjacent comments:

1.
Since 1993, and accelerated after 2005; the game, its roster size and the best practice of technique in MMA are things that are commonly thought to have evolved. Why, then would we concede that Ngannou's era was weak?

2.
What is the story with a weak flagship division and the general lack of star power in the sport? Is the valuation of the UFC fallen, adjusted for inflation, since the Zuffa sale?
Is the sport losing ground, maybe dying like Catch wrestling (1888 - 1915) before it?
Have kids finally had enough of the "fentanyl of sports"?

What gives???????

[TMLT87]

1.
Since 1993, and accelerated after 2005; the game, its roster size and the best practice of technique in MMA are things that are commonly thought to have evolved. Why, then would we concede that Ngannou's era was weak?

Its not as simple as that though. Its not a straight line where everything improves year by year, there is plenty of fluctuation. I mean, you're familiar with this pic right?


orpi7msl***41.jpg


Those are the UFC champions in 2011. How many champions in the UFC right now would you say are better technically and athletically than their equivalent 13 years ago? i'd say Islam over Frankie and maybe Jones/Aspinall over Cain.


Personally ive always found the "evolution" stuff to be largely a myth. The talent pool is larger now so theres more depth, but the actual ceiling for skills doesnt seem to have changed since around the time we started getting guys like Fedor, GSP and Anderson.


Also regarding the HW division specifically, keep in mind Stipe was being marketed as the "best HW ever" by the UFC off the back of beating almost entirely guys who peaked from the mid 00s-early 10s, but doing it in the mid-late 10s. Because the division had stagnated so those guys were still in the top 10 due to the lack of anyone new coming along and knocking them off.


I think LHW, MW and WW have seen much stronger days as well.

[TMLT87]

2.
What is the story with a weak flagship division and the general lack of star power in the sport? Is the valuation of the UFC fallen, adjusted for inflation, since the Zuffa sale?
Is the sport losing ground, maybe dying like Catch wrestling (1888 - 1915) before it?
Have kids finally had enough of the "fentanyl of sports"?

What gives???????

Eh, it ebbs and flows. They dont have any Conors or Brocks right now but they have a decent depth of mid level stars plus the UFC name in itself has brand value. I think the UFC is set up in a way that theres always gonna be a high turnover when it comes to stars, things move so fast, theres always a sense of something being able to catch fire very quickly if it hits. Just look at what happened with Masvidal in 2019, 15+ years as a journeyman then within like 6 months thanks to a flying knee, a catchphrase and a backstage altercation hes one of the biggest stars in combat sports. Boxing generally cant skyrocket someone like that, the process of making stars in boxing is a lot more gradual.

[Willow The Wisp]

Eh, it ebbs and flows. They dont have any Conors or Brocks right now but they have a decent depth of mid level stars plus the UFC name in itself has brand value. I think the UFC is set up in a way that theres always gonna be a high turnover when it comes to stars, things move so fast, theres always a sense of something being able to catch fire very quickly if it hits. Just look at what happened with Masvidal in 2019, 15+ years as a journeyman then within like 6 months thanks to a flying knee, a catchphrase and a backstage altercation hes one of the biggest stars in combat sports. Boxing generally cant skyrocket someone like that, the process of making stars in boxing is a lot more gradual.

Thanks for these good perspectives.