The Top 25 Lightweights of All-Time – 11 to 25

[TheGreatA]

I would hope so, he also had over 100 more fights at the weight than Mosley had at 135.

I am not knocking Locche, he deserves his spot, but to apply different criteria in grading Locche and Mosley is not honest, or fair.

You have to take into consideration the circumstances of the time a fighter was fighting in, and use your brain to draw conclusions about what would have happened had they been given the opportunity.

Does anyone doubt that Mosley would have had a less extraordinary career had he stayed at 135, instead of moving up to chase the bigger fights? Make no mistake about it, Mosley didn't move up because he could no longer make the weight, he moved up because he WANTED to fight the best, and that wasn't happening at 135lb.

So penalizing a 135lber who wanted to fight the best for moving up to fight the best, because the best wouldn't fight him at 135lb is ******. Its the same as penalizing Locche for not getting his title shot earlier.

I don't think different criteria is applied for Locche. He spent his whole career at 140, achieved great results and had a very solid reign at the top.

Mosley began at 135, held a title for a while and moved up to welterweight where he truly made his legacy. Oscar De La Hoya had arguably a better reign as a lightweight with wins over Ruelas, Hernandez, Molina, Leija, Paez but no one rates him because he didn't spend too much time at the weight.

Calling Mosley a top 25 lightweight is a bit generous in my opinion. Esteban DeJesus had wins over Duran, "Peppermint" Frazer, Suzuki Ishimatsu, Ray Lampkin, Viruet, Saldivar, Medina, etc. yet he didn't make it.

Jose Napoles looked like a beast at 135 and 140, his natural weights, but he is rated for his achievements as a welterweight because that's where he spent the majority of his career.

You can't rate a fighter for what he could have done.

[crold1]

I don't think different criteria is applied for Locche. He spent his whole career at 140, achieved great results and had a very solid reign at the top.

Mosley began at 135, held a title for a while and moved up to welterweight where he truly made his legacy. Oscar De La Hoya had arguably a better reign as a lightweight with wins over Ruelas, Hernandez, Molina, Leija, Paez but no one rates him because he didn't spend too much time at the weight.

Calling Mosley a top 25 lightweight is a bit generous in my opinion. Esteban DeJesus had wins over Duran, "Peppermint" Frazer, Suzuki Ishimatsu, Ray Lampkin, Viruet, Saldivar, Medina, etc. yet he didn't make it.

Jose Napoles looked like a beast at 135 and 140, his natural weights, but he is rated for his achievements as a welterweight because that's where he spent the majority of his career.

You can't rate a fighter for what he could have done.

DeJesus was a gripper for me...just missed and anyone who hates it can feel free. Again, like Feather, you could do 50 and still miss GREAT fighters. 23 of the final 25 are IN the Hall. Mosley and Castillo probably will be.

[!! Shawn]

This. He had wins over Perkins, Laguna, and Lopopolo before he weven wons the title along with a draw v. Ortiz.

I rated Locche top 5 at 40. There's a case for one. There is a stronger case to say Mosley doesn't belong in the top 25 for Lightweights than there is for Mosley over Castillo at Lightweight.

Ah yes, but they were tuneup fights and none of those fighters came prepared! Their world titles wasn't on the line after all!

I'm kidding, but take away those fights, and wait for Locche to win his title, does that make him any less great? No... He is the same damn fighter, only he never got those chances.

Do you knock Salvador Sanchez for DYING 2 years into his title reign? No, you look at what he was able to do and you extrapolate from there.

I don't know where things get backwards for you, but they do. You say BEST, that means skill, not resume. If you say ACCOMPLISHED, that means resume, not skill.

If we are to take Roy Jones for example, as you seem to view this logic as Roy Jones fan logic, it goes as follows.

Roy Jones is not the best middleweight of all time, and it has nothing to do with resume. He was not as strong at middleweight, and he was not as fast at middleweight, so I would say it is fair to assume that as a middleweight, Roy would have been beatable. Roy's best weight was at 168lb. He was strong, and fast at that weight, as opposed to gangly or over muscled as he was at 160 and 174 respectively.

For Mosley that weight was 135lb. At 147 he is over muscled, not as fluid, and not as fast, and doesn't hit as hard. It was even worse at 154lb.

So by use of logical reasoning skills, we can assume that, if Shanes accomplishments at 147 are better than Castillo's at 135, and 147lb is not Shanes best weight, he would have been capable of those same accomplishments, if not BETTER at his best weight of 135lb.

[crold1]

Ah yes, but they were tuneup fights and none of those fighters came prepared! Their world titles wasn't on the line after all!

I'm kidding, but take away those fights, and wait for Locche to win his title, does that make him any less great? No... He is the same damn fighter, only he never got those chances.

Do you knock Salvador Sanchez for DYING 2 years into his title reign? No, you look at what he was able to do and you extrapolate from there.

I don't know where things get backwards for you, but they do. You say BEST, that means skill, not resume. If you say ACCOMPLISHED, that means resume, not skill.

If we are to take Roy Jones for example, as you seem to view this logic as Roy Jones fan logic, it goes as follows.

Roy Jones is not the best middleweight of all time, and it has nothing to do with resume. He was not as strong at middleweight, and he was not as fast at middleweight, so I would say it is fair to assume that as a middleweight, Roy would have been beatable. Roy's best weight was at 168lb. He was strong, and fast at that weight, as opposed to gangly or over muscled as he was at 160 and 174 respectively.

For Mosley that weight was 135lb. At 147 he is over muscled, not as fluid, and not as fast, and doesn't hit as hard. It was even worse at 154lb.

So by use of logical reasoning skills, we can assume that, if Shanes accomplishments at 147 are better than Castillo's at 135, and 147lb is not Shanes best weight, he would have been capable of those same accomplishments, if not BETTER at his best weight of 135lb.

Sanchez could have been even higher if he hadn't died...I think everyone can acknowledge that. He's a top ten feather anyways BECAUSE OF WHO HE FREAKING BEAT. If his best win had been Patrick Ford, no rating. It wasn't.

Same with Locche...he would have been the same fighter but those wins happened to enhance his stature.

And actually, the title is "Top" which can imply skills and resume. We each must favor one over the other. You have yet to point to anything Mosley actually did, at Lightweight, which would merit a rating over Castillo so I'm bored.

[!! Shawn]

I don't think different criteria is applied for Locche. He spent his whole career at 140, achieved great results and had a very solid reign at the top.

Mosley began at 135, held a title for a while and moved up to welterweight where he truly made his legacy. Oscar De La Hoya had arguably a better reign as a lightweight with wins over Ruelas, Hernandez, Molina, Leija, Paez but no one rates him because he didn't spend too much time at the weight.

Calling Mosley a top 25 lightweight is a bit generous in my opinion. Esteban DeJesus had wins over Duran, "Peppermint" Frazer, Suzuki Ishimatsu, Ray Lampkin, Viruet, Saldivar, Medina, etc. yet he didn't make it.

Jose Napoles looked like a beast at 135 and 140, his natural weights, but he is rated for his achievements as a welterweight because that's where he spent the majority of his career.

You can't rate a fighter for what he could have done.

By that Logic, SRR should only be rated as a Middleweight, because the VAST majority of his career was spent above the 147lb limit.

After all, Sugar Ray Robinson only fought as a real welterweight for at most 5 years of his career, after which he fought as a middleweight occasionally drying out to 147 for a title defense. Actually, from 1946-1950, he fought nearly 40 times, only 8 of those were at welterweight, yet he is accredited with being a welterweight for that entire period.

Mosley spent 7 years at 135, that is no small chunk of time, He beat two of the guys Oscar beat in more impressive fashion, but he didn't have the name like Oscar so he couldn't get those big fights, does that make him any less of a fighter? No. It just means he had to pack on some pounds and go searching elsewhere, same way Sugar Ray Robinson did.

[crold1]

By that Logic, SRR should only be rated as a Middleweight, because the VAST majority of his career was spent above the 147lb limit.

After all, Sugar Ray Robinson only fought as a real welterweight for at most 5 years of his career, after which he fought as a middleweight occasionally drying out to 147 for a title defense. Actually, from 1946-1950, he fought nearly 40 times, only 8 of those were at welterweight, yet he is accredited with being a welterweight for that entire period.

Mosley spent 7 years at 135, that is no small chunk of time, He beat two of the guys Oscar beat in more impressive fashion, but he didn't have the name like Oscar so he couldn't get those big fights, does that make him any less of a fighter? No. It just means he had to pack on some pounds and go searching elsewhere, same way Sugar Ray Robinson did.

On what planet did he beat Leija more impressively than Oscar did?

And you're pretending Robinson never had a fight at Welter before the title or just ignoring who he fought. He was flirting with Welter by 41 and almost exclusive to it until 46 with wins over World championship level guys from Lightweight to Middle.

every analogy you're making weakens your case even more. Stop while you're behind dude. If your case is Mosley would have done more if...great. It's perfect to argue mythical matches.

[TheGreatA]

By that Logic, SRR should only be rated as a Middleweight, because the VAST majority of his career was spent above the 147lb limit.

After all, Sugar Ray Robinson only fought as a real welterweight for at most 5 years of his career, after which he fought as a middleweight occasionally drying out to 147 for a title defense. Actually, from 1946-1950, he fought nearly 40 times, only 8 of those were at welterweight, yet he is accredited with being a welterweight for that entire period.

Mosley spent 7 years at 135, that is no small chunk of time, He beat two of the guys Oscar beat in more impressive fashion, but he didn't have the name like Oscar so he couldn't get those big fights, does that make him any less of a fighter? No. It just means he had to pack on some pounds and go searching elsewhere, same way Sugar Ray Robinson did.

Robinson had a great welterweight resume though, unlike Mosley.

Mosley to me was weight-drained at 135 to be honest.

[!! Shawn]

On what planet did he beat Leija more impressively than Oscar did?

And you're pretending Robinson never had a fight at Welter before the title. He was flirting with Welter by 41 and almost exclusive to it until 46 with wins over World championship level guys from Lightweight to Middle.

every analogy you're making weakens your case even more. Stop while you're behind dude. If your case is Mosley would have done more if...great. It's perfect to argue mythical matches.

As I said, 5 years. After which point, he fought above the welterweight limit for the vast majority of his fights, only boiling down for a defense of the title. That does not qualify as welterweight any more than Bernard Hopkins making welterweights come up in weight to fight him qualifies him as a welterweight.

I am not knocking SRR, I am just pointing out the inconsistent, and unfair way in which you are rating fighters.

Shane didn't have that option. In this day and age, when you move up to fight more than once in another weight class, the organizations find a way to strip you of your belts.

But you seem to rate SRR acomplishments when he was a middleweight picking on WW's the same as when he was a WW fighting WW, yet you don't give Shane credit for being a lightweight picking on welterweights. By that same logic, Oscar doesn't get credit at 135lb from you because he wasn't a real 135lb.

You see what I am saying? If you are going to go by resume, do it in an objective way with a mathematical formula, like Boxrec does. If you do it any other way, you are factoring in skill, and when you factor in skill, you can't take away from a guy how he proves his skill, you just have to admit that its there, and rate accordingly.

What is fair is to judge a fighters natural size, and add all their accomplishments onto that.

Mosley is a natural 135

Oscar is a natural 154

Locche was a natural 140.

Its unfair to penalize guys because they jumped weights for big fights, instead of spending their whole career in one place, especially in a day and age where you are expected to move up in weight.

[!! Shawn]

Robinson had a great welterweight resume though, unlike Mosley.

Mosley to me was weight-drained at 135 to be honest.

You don't spend 7 years at the same weight because you are weight drained, and you also don't jump two weight classes because you are weight drained.

If Shane stopped lifting weights, I would be willing to bet money that even at this age, his body would settle around 140lb. We are talking about a guy who has to lift weights, just to keep up his size to stay at welterweight.

[Doctor_Tenma]

You don't spend 7 years at the same weight because you are weight drained, and you also don't jump two weight classes because you are weight drained.

If Shane stopped lifting weights, I would be willing to bet money that even at this age, his body would settle around 140lb. We are talking about a guy who has to lift weights, just to keep up his size to stay at welterweight.

I remember reading somehwere that Shane could only be 135 for a couple of hours.