So Beterbiev tested for high levels of HGH and testosterone

[IronDanHamza]

Making yourself available year round and funding it means Canelo was subject to more tests than just for 11 fights. The more tests you pass the better.

Oh ok so you have to do the same 365 testing Canelo did to be deemed likely clean?

9 fights under VADA testing is not enough to deem someone likely clean?

Floyd did USADA testing (in the country where USADA has jurisdiction) so he isn’t really relevant to Canelo comparisons with Beterbiev since they use VADA.

Who said there's a comparison? I'm not comparing them. I'm trying to get to the bottom of how you're deemed likely clean.

Yes, Floyd did fight by fight USADA testing. Is that enough to deem someone likely clean?

Odd test measurements don’t necessarily mean PED use, no. But it is a good reason to suspect someone more.

Right, right, I agree.

That's also the case for having a condition being linked to PED use and being caught with an illegal IV though too right?

[ShoulderRoll]

Oh ok so you have to do the same 365 testing Canelo did to be deemed likely clean?

9 fights under VADA testing is not enough to deem someone likely clean?



Who said there's a comparison? I'm not comparing them. I'm trying to get to the bottom of how you're deemed likely clean.

Yes, Floyd did fight by fight USADA testing. Is that enough to deem someone likely clean?



Right, right, I agree.

That's also the case for having a condition being linked to PED use and being caught with an illegal IV though too right?

The more times you are VADA tested with no odd measurement results the more likely you are to be clean. More is better.

To me simply having rhabdo isn’t as suspect as having atypical testosterone and HGH levels at 39. Floyd didn’t have an illegal IV, he had a TUE for it.

[IronDanHamza]

The more times you are VADA tested with no odd measurement results the more likely you are to be clean. More is better.

Not what I asked you, pay attention to the questions.

Do you have to do the same 365 testing Canelo did to be deemed likely clean?

9 fights under VADA testing is not enough to deem someone likely clean?

Who said there's a comparison? I'm not comparing them. I'm trying to get to the bottom of how you're deemed likely clean.

Yes, Floyd did fight by fight USADA testing. Is that enough to deem someone likely clean?

To me simply having rhabdo isn’t as suspect as having atypical testosterone and HGH levels at 39.

No no no, you can't do that. You can't pick and choose, you said it's a good reason to suspect someone, for once, you're actually right about that.

But, so is having Rhadbo in your 20's and so is being caught with an illegal IV. Let's not be a hypocrite now, you can't have both.

So I think we can dismiss that one, can't we?

Floyd didn’t have an illegal IV, he had a TUE for it.

Floyd quite LITERALLY was caught using an illegal IV. He got the tue 3 weeks later, but that doesn't change the fact that when he was caught, he was caught using an illegal IV. That is more then enough reason to STRONGLY suspect someone.

[ShoulderRoll]

Not what I asked you, pay attention to the questions.

Do you have to do the same 365 testing Canelo did to be deemed likely clean?

9 fights under VADA testing is not enough to deem someone likely clean?

Who said there's a comparison? I'm not comparing them. I'm trying to get to the bottom of how you're deemed likely clean.

Yes, Floyd did fight by fight USADA testing. Is that enough to deem someone likely clean?





No no no, you can't do that. You can't pick and choose, you said it's a good reason to suspect someone, for once, you're actually right about that.

But, so is having Rhadbo in your 20's and so is being caught with an illegal IV. Let's not be a hypocrite now, you can't have both.

So I think we can dismiss that one, can't we?




Floyd quite LITERALLY was caught using an illegal IV. He got the tue 3 weeks later, but that doesn't change the fact that when he was caught, he was caught using an illegal IV. That is more than enough reason to STRONGLY suspect someone.

I gave my position on this already. “As long as someone is regularly enrolling in VADA testing for all their fights, over a period of multiple years, with no odd measurement results…that is good enough for me. There’s no exact number of times before I deem them clean. Thus Beterbiev wasn’t much on my radar when it comes to PEDs, until today.” But the more times the better obviously.

Of course I can do that. There can be degrees of more suspect and less suspect. Not all 26,000 cases of rhabdo per year are due to PEDs, I bet only a minority are. Would you guess that only a minority of cases of atypical testosterone and HGH levels in 39 year old men are due to PEDs? And is that percentage likely to be higher or lower than the rhabdo cases due to PEDs?

They wouldn’t give Floyd a retroactive TUE if what he did was deemed illegal.

[Cypocryphy]

Are you under the impression that because he's 39 and a world class athlete that his test levels should be though the roof?

Because they shouldn't, in fact at the time these findings were found during his camp they'd typically be on the lower side for any athlete, let alone a 39 year old one.

It's an indicator for PED use, it's why these specific tests are done in the first place. He will be heavily tested from now on after this.

Where did it say that his tests came back "through the roof"? Now you're just making stuff up. What was reported was "raised levels" but nothing surpassing that threshold required to violate any rules or laws. Raised levels means anything between average and high but within a normal value range.

I've had to do blood work before and had one test come back saying I had high levels of hemoglobin (but within acceptable levels), and then when I did the test again, it was slightly lower than average. These tests will fluctuate for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes the time of day can affect the outcome of a test. Usually lab work taking in the mornings will result in higher levels of testosterone than if lab work is done in the afternoon or toward evening.

There are all kinds of factors that could explain the outcome, so it's pointless to speculate when, ultimately, Beterbeiv's test were normal.

[IronDanHamza]

I gave my position on this already. “As long as someone is regularly enrolling in VADA testing for all their fights, over a period of multiple years, with no odd measurement results…that is good enough for me. There’s no exact number of times before I deem them clean. Thus Beterbiev wasn’t much on my radar when it comes to PEDs, until today.” But the more times the better obviously.

That is not what I asked you. Pay attention, listen to the questions. Let's not do this again, let's not be a coward and avoid questions. It's a terrible look and you know exactly how it goes.

Let's go one by one so we can get to the very bottom of what is and what isn't likely clean;

Do you have to do the same 365 testing Canelo did to be deemed likely clean? Yes or no will suffice.

9 fights under VADA testing is not enough to deem someone likely clean? Yes or no will suffice.

Floyd did fight by fight USADA testing. Is that enough to deem someone likely clean? Yes or no will suffice.

These are very simple and easy questions. If you answer them we can move on with the discussion. If you avoid them and refuse to answer them then all you're doing is accepting your L.

Of course I can do that. There can be degrees of more suspect and less suspect. Not all 26,000 cases of rhabdo per year are due to PEDs, I bet only a minority are. Would you guess that only a minority of cases of atypical testosterone and HGH levels in 39 year old men are due to PEDs? And is that percentage likely to be higher or lower than the rhabdo cases due to PEDs?

Nope, you can't. That is what known as a "double standard". Look it up on google. It also would make you something called a "hypocrite" look that up on google too. Both of those are negative things you don't want to be.

If we establish that Rhabdo can happen without the use of PEDs, and dismiss it. Then we can only do the same for someone having elevated test levels, which can also happen without the use of PEDs. We can't have both, it's one or the other. So pick one.

You are also being overtly intellectually dishonest here.

You can't narrow it down to age with Beterbiev and not do the same with Ortiz.

If that's the case, we need to look into how many 25 year olds have had Rhabdo multiple times and is there a PED link? Then the answer would be likely the vast majority.

So I'm not sure that's a road you'd like to go down.

They wouldn’t give Floyd a retroactive TUE if what he did was deemed illegal.

Ok, I'll have to explain this one to you slower so you understand.

Floyd, was literally, and I mean that by the definition of the term, literally, caught using an illegal amount of fluid in an IV (across two sittings). That is an objective fact, It's not debatable.

He was given a TUE 3 weeks later, why he did, only USADA can answer that, but it doesn't change the fact, again, literal fact, that he was caught using an IV, that was illegal to use.

[IronDanHamza]

Where did it say that his tests came back "through the roof"? Now you're just making stuff up. What was reported was "raised levels" but nothing surpassing that threshold required to violate any rules or laws. Raised levels means anything between average and high but within a normal value range.

I've had to do blood work before and had one test come back saying I had high levels of hemoglobin (but within acceptable levels), and then when I did the test again, it was slightly lower than average. These tests will fluctuate for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes the time of day can affect the outcome of a test. Usually lab work taking in the mornings will result in higher levels of testosterone than if lab work is done in the afternoon or toward evening.

There are all kinds of factors that could explain the outcome, so it's pointless to speculate when, ultimately, Beterbeiv's test were normal.

I didn't say it was. We don't know his test levels. I said that in response to a poster that was implying it should be and it's normal, which it's not.

What you're saying is true, elevated test levels can happen without the use of PEDs.

But, it's an alarm bell none the less. They will react to this be testing him a lot, I would imagine.

[Roadblock]

Floyd quite LITERALLY was caught using an illegal IV. He got the tue 3 weeks later, but that doesn't change the fact that when he was caught, he was caught using an illegal IV. That is more then enough reason to STRONGLY suspect someone.

What do you mean CAUGHT, what were the circumstances and who was there, and who did the catching, I don't understand what you mean by CAUGHT, its assuming a crime and that wasn't the case from what I can gather.

The other thing is why do you say Illegal when the authorities deemed it wasn't, whats going on with that?

[IronDanHamza]

What do you mean CAUGHT, what were the circumstances and who was there, and who did the catching, I don't understand what you mean by CAUGHT, its assuming a crime and that wasn't the case from what I can gather.

The other thing is why do you say Illegal when the authorities deemed it wasn't, whats going on with that?

By caught, I mean he was found in his home using an IV that was prohibited. By who specifically? I don't know. But we do know it happened which is acknowledged by all parties.

By illegal, I mean the particular IV he was using was prohibited.

The authorities didn't deem it legal, they gave him an exemption 3 weeks later for doing something that was prohibited for the reasons he gave as to why he needed said prohibited IV.

It's very cut and dry stuff.

[Cypocryphy]

I didn't say it was. We don't know his test levels. I said that in response to a poster that was implying it should be and it's normal, which it's not.

What you're saying is true, elevated test levels can happen without the use of PEDs.

But, it's an alarm bell none the less. They will react to this be testing him a lot, I would imagine.

Yeah. That's possible. I've always said that if I were to cheat, the two drugs I'd use would be HGH and TRT (or maybe it would just be testosterone). Using drugs that actually mimic natural hormones are nigh impossible to detect if done correctly.

I have to say, however, that if abuse is going on, they're other signs, which I'm sure you know about. For example, I've yet to see someone escape the dreaded body acne, especially bacne, when abusing androgens. (I'm trying to find it but I can find it now, but there was a photo I saw where Canelo had developed acne on his back.)

Sometimes there are visible signs that make it obvious, but Beterbiev is not in the media often enough to really tell. For HGH, one of the first things I notice is a change in a man's jawline. His chin will look different, kind of wider. This is why I thought a lot of these boxers start growing beards later on in their career, to hide the change to their jawline. (When Manny and Floyd started to grow beards, it made me su****ious.)

Anyway, it's just speculation right now. However, if it were me, and I was in my 40s fighting professionally or close to it, I definitely would be using Testosterone and possibly HGH. I'd do just to remain competitive and as a way to PROTECT MYSELF, not necessarily to win. Just to make sure I hold my own and come out okay.