What was Nate supposed to do?

[billeau2]

I don’t truly want to make this point, but I’m gonna say it’s because in the end? Most folks don’t truly understand the dynamics in fighting from MMA to boxing. We saw a Terence Crawford box the ears off of Errol Spence. I used to love the watch Floyd fight. I loved the creativity of Manny Pacquiao. The way he dropped Keith Thurman, was the same kind of punch?? He hit many people with, he just so happen to drop Keith with it.


i say all that to say, most folks, don’t truly understand that MMA in general? Like you said those guys are killers, but they’re not boxers. Many of them cannot hit at all, but if you tell people that, they will tell you that you’re losing your mind. They only think these guys can hit, because those guys don’t have good chins on average. The beating Errol Spence took against Terence Crawford? I thought it was bad, but it wasn’t as bad as I’ve seen other beatings in boxing. errol still had his wits to him, because he’s very tough physically. I don’t think there’s any fighter in history of MMA, that would’ve lasted as long as Errol Spence. Not to mention the racial component, I think many people want to see a white guy with swagger participate in boxing. Or any other very popular sport.

Jake found a niche, and it’s wonderful. I hope we can all do the same in our fields but these MMA guys really just leave a lot to the table boxing wise.

MMA is still a relatively young sport. It also has a lot of inroad paths. Boxing as we understand it was introduced by James Figg with a fencing vocabulary. That makes boxing easy to trace. You can define eras like when Dempsey fought, and so on. When you know your roots it makes understanding clear. For MMA there were initially many arts, Everything from when karate men decided to put on gloves and create "Kick boxing" of course Thai boxing, Ju Jutsu, Judo and many many styles of wrestling. And in brazil there was a strong tradition of combatives with different rule sets, competition amongst different styles, etc.

Guys used to compete in all these events, everything from Vale Tudo, shoot wrestling, traditional and Judoka inspired JuJuttsu styles... And what finally happened is athletes started training specifically for the ring by taking what was useful from all the different fighting traditions... something Bruce Lee alluded to in the sixties. This approach of using techniques from different arts evolved to developing the technical approach to best use in the ring. From the early UFC days, athletes became professional fighters (the Gracies always were), and trained as athletes in addition to fighters. So what we get are ver strong guys who have taken piecemeal from a variety of sources, to game the sport. This seems to work for many arts, it is relatively easy to go to a Tai Kwon Do school to learn kicks, to practice ground fighting aspects of both: traditional and Judo Ju Jutsu, and so on. Fighters can even go one step further and simply learn techniques specifically for avoiding take downs, etc.

So why does this not work with boxing? I have a theory. The first thing is, the simple arts can be the arts that take the most time to master. Kendo has less techiques than any other Japanese art, yet is the hardest art to master... Boxing does not have a large amount of techniques, but it depends on excellence with the hands, feet and body movements. Boxing has benefitted from a rich tradition that demands time and no compromises on the tecnical approach, which has not been diluted for centuries. it has been this way for long enough that the quality of the training is affected. Martial arts systems generally are practiced with a lot of variation concerning quality, commitment, and there is usually no quality control to speak of... The GRacies are an exception that way. Hence, by the time a professional boxer comes along, he has learned in an art/sport where the quality is there, and where the standards, technical base of the art has not been diluted. Any attempts to take strikes from boxing (there are different ways to punch) will be less effective than training in the system as a whole. This means that MMA strikers can never match a boxer who specializes in hitting, by deciding to take select techniques from the art.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Was there a Paul fight? I missed it. Oh noes.

[crimsonfalcon07]

MMA is still a relatively young sport. It also has a lot of inroad paths. Boxing as we understand it was introduced by James Figg with a fencing vocabulary. That makes boxing easy to trace. You can define eras like when Dempsey fought, and so on. When you know your roots it makes understanding clear. For MMA there were initially many arts, Everything from when karate men decided to put on gloves and create "Kick boxing" of course Thai boxing, Ju Jutsu, Judo and many many styles of wrestling. And in brazil there was a strong tradition of combatives with different rule sets, competition amongst different styles, etc.

Guys used to compete in all these events, everything from Vale Tudo, shoot wrestling, traditional and Judoka inspired JuJuttsu styles... And what finally happened is athletes started training specifically for the ring by taking what was useful from all the different fighting traditions... something Bruce Lee alluded to in the sixties. This approach of using techniques from different arts evolved to developing the technical approach to best use in the ring. From the early UFC days, athletes became professional fighters (the Gracies always were), and trained as athletes in addition to fighters. So what we get are ver strong guys who have taken piecemeal from a variety of sources, to game the sport. This seems to work for many arts, it is relatively easy to go to a Tai Kwon Do school to learn kicks, to practice ground fighting aspects of both: traditional and Judo Ju Jutsu, and so on. Fighters can even go one step further and simply learn techniques specifically for avoiding take downs, etc.

So why does this not work with boxing? I have a theory. The first thing is, the simple arts can be the arts that take the most time to master. Kendo has less techiques than any other Japanese art, yet is the hardest art to master... Boxing does not have a large amount of techniques, but it depends on excellence with the hands, feet and body movements. Boxing has benefitted from a rich tradition that demands time and no compromises on the tecnical approach, which has not been diluted for centuries. it has been this way for long enough that the quality of the training is affected. Martial arts systems generally are practiced with a lot of variation concerning quality, commitment, and there is usually no quality control to speak of... The GRacies are an exception that way. Hence, by the time a professional boxer comes along, he has learned in an art/sport where the quality is there, and where the standards, technical base of the art has not been diluted. Any attempts to take strikes from boxing (there are different ways to punch) will be less effective than training in the system as a whole. This means that MMA strikers can never match a boxer who specializes in hitting, by deciding to take select techniques from the art.

Each of the sports has bad habits for the others. One of the big problems for MMA fighters transitioning to boxing is that they have to worry about kicks and takedowns in MMA. In the case of the former, they have to adopt a wider guard than is advisable in boxing. If they try to keep their guard really tight, taking kicks against the arms won't have any space to take any of the power off, and they'll end up getting their arms battered to pieces. The Tawanchai v Davit Kiris fight from Friday (see ONE on prime 13) is a great example. In the case of takedowns, they keep their guard low to get underhooks as they sprawl out. Both of those habits apply subconsciously to their guards, leaving them very porous to strikes compared to a boxer's guard. I think the takedown issue is the biggest one, as there are plenty of Muay Thai fighters who have been able to win boxing world titles in addition to their Muay Thai bonafides.

When it comes to striking and chins, bear in mind MMA fighters have those tiny gloves. Try getting cracked with MMA gloves vs boxing gloves and you'll see very quickly that it's not the same story. Way easier to penetrate a guard with MMA gloves also, and consequently you see different habits forming that aren't beneficial in boxing.

So then you end up fighting your own instincts as well as your opponent, or getting disqualified, and either way it's bad for you.

There's a lot more specific techniques I could point to that lead to deficiencies, and bear in mind it works both ways too. Boxers don't generally do well in MMA.

[billeau2]

Each of the sports has bad habits for the others. One of the big problems for MMA fighters transitioning to boxing is that they have to worry about kicks and takedowns in MMA. In the case of the former, they have to adopt a wider guard than is advisable in boxing. If they try to keep their guard really tight, taking kicks against the arms won't have any space to take any of the power off, and they'll end up getting their arms battered to pieces. The Tawanchai v Davit Kiris fight from Friday (see ONE on prime 13) is a great example. In the case of takedowns, they keep their guard low to get underhooks as they sprawl out. Both of those habits apply subconsciously to their guards, leaving them very porous to strikes compared to a boxer's guard. I think the takedown issue is the biggest one, as there are plenty of Muay Thai fighters who have been able to win boxing world titles in addition to their Muay Thai bonafides.

When it comes to striking and chins, bear in mind MMA fighters have those tiny gloves. Try getting cracked with MMA gloves vs boxing gloves and you'll see very quickly that it's not the same story. Way easier to penetrate a guard with MMA gloves also, and consequently you see different habits forming that aren't beneficial in boxing.

So then you end up fighting your own instincts as well as your opponent, or getting disqualified, and either way it's bad for you.

There's a lot more specific techniques I could point to that lead to deficiencies, and bear in mind it works both ways too. Boxers don't generally do well in MMA.

Good points. In this case bad habits are relative lol. Thai fighters do transition fairly well. Pacman fights a lot like a Thai fighter... quick off the main fighting line. MMA fighters do have the smaller gloves and when gloves got bigger in boxing punching dynamics changed a lot. Its a topic onto itself, but a lot is lost, and changes because of how power is transferred. you lose the direct transmission with big gloves, so instead one must really swing the arms hard with the trunk muscles. With smaller gloves, accuracy, like with a forward lead, allowed one much more success. The idea was essentially to keep the structure right, so the hands did not break, and the mechanics allowed one to target the chin tip, the jawline, ther plexus with straight shots, and the ribs with the hook.

I often think MMA guys could learn a lot watching the fighters prior to the Dempsey era. The mechanics are more in line with punching with smaller gloves and more distance is created which would help with take downs, except of course the back leg was used a lot more back then which MMA guys don't like to do (takedowns).

[crimsonfalcon07]

Good points. In this case bad habits are relative lol. Thai fighters do transition fairly well. Pacman fights a lot like a Thai fighter... quick off the main fighting line. MMA fighters do have the smaller gloves and when gloves got bigger in boxing punching dynamics changed a lot. Its a topic onto itself, but a lot is lost, and changes because of how power is transferred. you lose the direct transmission with big gloves, so instead one must really swing the arms hard with the trunk muscles. With smaller gloves, accuracy, like with a forward lead, allowed one much more success. The idea was essentially to keep the structure right, so the hands did not break, and the mechanics allowed one to target the chin tip, the jawline, ther plexus with straight shots, and the ribs with the hook.

I often think MMA guys could learn a lot watching the fighters prior to the Dempsey era. The mechanics are more in line with punching with smaller gloves and more distance is created which would help with take downs, except of course the back leg was used a lot more back then which MMA guys don't like to do (takedowns).

It's more the defensive problems, not the striking prowess, IMO. That's why they usually get knocked out. Like, head movement is very different in any sport that involves kicks, because you can try to be evasive with your head to avoid punches and put your head right into a kick. I actually accidentally nearly knocked a former golden gloves guy out at my gym once because he put his head right into a kick I was throwing and neither one of us expected it at that moment. I thought I was going to tap him in the ribs, and there was a head there instead, moving quickly.

So as a consequence, MMA guys often leave their head in the same lane, and since they can't use some of the defenses that are natural for them (like popping a takedown to avoid a punch, or using a stop kick), they just end up being defensively irresponsible, and sooner or later they get caught.

Works the other way too. Look at how Conor McGregor changed his style and stance after all the boxing training
for Floyd, and he actually got worse at MMA as a result. You got it in one about the accuracy and how hard they have to hit to get results though.