Do I have a reasonable argument for having Floyd Mayweather Jr as the greatest fighter of all time?

[edgarg]

You missed the point you cannot keep doing a Lamotta fight after fight, I dont care what comp you are in the very best cannot compete against each other day after dat they will burn up in half the time. the ATGs throughout history will have no more than around 20-30 top level fights on there resume spread out amongst the rest, todays fighters are thrown into more of their limit over a shorter period, meaning they rise quicker into high level comp in in the amateur's the rise in competition is fast..

The ability level of comp has certainly changed, everything in this world has changed its undeniable and the record books reflect it, we are not talking about one or two examples we are talking about the wave consisting of science and technique improvements, the tuition from infant to the world title is so much deeper today.

Other sports will compare against boxing only so far because nothing tests the soul like one on one combat, here mind-body in its fullest is tested, just like dogs compete in all manners of sports from racing to rounding up sheep and nothing will test the complete animal like a conditioned P4P dog fight will., and boxing is the same for the same reasons it tests to the extreme everything.

In the old days boxing was made up mostly of street toughs, pugs and bullies, you never had the professional guidance like they have today, Im nearly 70 yrs old and I can see the difference in the quality of the generalized fighter a mile away. It evolved and will keep on evolving only the gains wont be much and harder to obtain, mankind is getting close to his physical limits, records are milliseconds apart not goal posts.

You may be nearly 70 years old (I'm even older than that) but you don't seem to have learned much. Around Benny Leonard's, Ted "Kid" Lewis's, Lew Tendler's, Johnny Dundee's timt There were3-4 times more fighters in New York City alone, than in the whole US today. There were up to 80 boxing shows in any given month (maybe week) There were likely about 500 fighters we never heard of or who have been almost forgotten who could have slaughtered Mayweather. They fought to put food on the table, took on all comers, The big fights were either against champions coming up, or the #1 contenders.

Boxing rivalled Baseball as the #1 sport . At that period there was not mc boxing in the rest of the world, the next numerous were in the U.K and Europe, but nothing like the US..

[edgarg]

They didn't have the science or the know-how, many didn't even have refrigerators, they were work Sargents with a nose on the grindstone, there is fitness and then there is conditioning, they knew nothing of the level of conditioning the top fighters get into today, the balance of explosive power with strength and stamina is near its pinnacle today, advanced conditioning is light years away from the pre 80s gaining every decade.

Every aspect of human performance has improved by leaps and bounds, records are broken, racehorses and F1 cars are faster, high jumpers jump higher, weight lifters carry more weight, its the evolution of man, and everything wants to be better and more efficient, but wait you think boxing is exempt from the laws of adaption, stuck in time like a frozen cog in a clock, yeah right.

Surprised at the ignorance froma guy wh'e been on this site for so long. What the hell as refridgerators got to do with it. When I was a kid, living in Ireland, we had a "safe" outsde in the yard, it was abox on legs, made of perforated steel sheeting. In the US they were more sophisticated, they had iceboxes. When they could afford fridges they got them, just as we did.

Boxing has NOT improved. Fighters in those days were in the gym and chopping logs, doing roadwork as much as they could to make themselves tough enough to fight a couple of times a month, maybe more. And they werre real fights, not posturing with patsies. The needed the money, being mostly , or all, from immigrant families living at a low level. They HAD to win at all costs...if they could.

[edgarg]

Great post.

I think the boxing fanbase is the only fanbase where a lot of fans are denial about how much superior boxers are today. Every common sense detail is ignored.

In an NBA discussion, claiming Tom Heinsohn, who played in a majority white NBA, is better than Kobe Bryant, would get you laughed at. Heinsohn has 11 championships right? How many does Bryant have, 5? Yep, proof enough that Heinsohn is better.

Magic Johnson, scored around 17k-18k points. Jerry West scored 25k+ points. In NBA, discussion, if go around saying Jerry West was better, you’d get slapped, laughed at, and lose your basketball credibility. But Jerry, in a majority white NBA, scored more points than Magic, doesn’t that make him better? No, it does not.

In boxing discussions, it’s a completely different story. You are now talking about a fanbase consists of a lot of fans who don’t live in reality. Gene Tunney KO’s Tyson Fury, Mike Tyson wouldn’t last a round vs Max Schmeling, and Mayweather would have no answer for Barney Ross. And going around claiming these nonsensical opinions wouldn’t get you laughed at, it will get you high fives and into the circles of the pretentious boxing elitist.

i HAD to look in here to see who is the dumbbell. Yep, it's the same guy.

[edgarg]

Castillo took him to school Mexican style

Yes He slipped up there in choosing to fight him. He got a gift decision. And thtat wan't the only one. as we all know.

[Zaroku]

Yes He slipped up there in choosing to fight him. He got a gift decision. And thtat wan't the only one. as we all know.

Floyd learned fast.. foot is great!

[edgarg]

Hes atleast top 5. If you want to argue over the top 5 that is fine but people saying hes top 20 are biased.


He was 38 years old undefeated and no young buck on the planet could touch him. He has longevity in his record. Beat Marciano's record with vastly superior competition.

The only thing true about Mayweather you didn't mention. He had the best elbow to the throat in boxing and the skill to do it when the ref couldn't see.

[edgarg]

For what he's done for the sport, he's had the greatest impact, but as far as skilled, I would say top 5 for sure.I truly believe Robinson would have eaten Floyd up.




Lets see your top 15 please.

You don't seem to see the incongruity of your comment. I agree totally that Robinson would have eaten him up., and probably in a couple of rounds. In that case, how could the guy be in the top 5. ????? That sort of imbalance could sink the Queen Mary.
I think you left off a couple of zeros.......

[edgarg]

I understand what you mean by great now, I just tend to think who would have beaten who ---> not their overall historical contribution to the sport. I won't fight you on it though because you do have some valid points and we're all here for the same reason.

Mayweathers career wasn't perfectly managed imo. He got Manny when Manny was still dominating fighters. I don't score Bradley as a loss, I had Manny winning and everybody knows TR fixed that because Pac's contract was up and Bob does that. JMM caught him, but that was bound to happen.

He fought a lot of dangerous fighters early in his career. I wasn't paying attention to odds back then, but all of my boxing friends had Corrales going into that fight. 33-0-27 he was killing it. He fought all the top dogs when they were hot and if they weren't it was due to no fault of his own. Manny on the other hand, there was a criteria. You needed to have recent losses or get shrunk.

It's WELL KNOWN that Corrales went into that fight still 10 lbs overweight the morning of the weigh in. Spent hours in the sweat box, still failed twice. The third time had to be helped to walk to the scales. He's already gone up to lightweight had trouble making 130 for 2-3 years before. Was nearly 6 ft tall. Was going to jail to 2 years immediately after the fight. He took it only because he was up to his eyes in debt to his lawyers. he made a very graphic video about it. His life was in ruins, his family shattered He didn't bother training until the last couple of weeks, still 26 lbs overweight. His trainer was complaining that he couldn't get him to train that he spent all hias time in his room playing with a Gameboy.

Mayweather picked the perfect time to cherry pick.

All this is on record. easily obtainable.

[Roadblock]

Surprised at the ignorance froma guy wh'e been on this site for so long. What the hell as refridgerators got to do with it. When I was a kid, living in Ireland, we had a "safe" outsde in the yard, it was abox on legs, made of perforated steel sheeting. In the US they were more sophisticated, they had iceboxes. When they could afford fridges they got them, just as we did.

Boxing has NOT improved. Fighters in those days were in the gym and chopping logs, doing roadwork as much as they could to make themselves tough enough to fight a couple of times a month, maybe more. And they werre real fights, not posturing with patsies. The needed the money, being mostly , or all, from immigrant families living at a low level. They HAD to win at all costs...if they could.

Haha you mind is too closed of from reality to fathom what Im saying, go through the records books of human sporting improvement and come back and tell me why the modern athlete out performs the athletes of 20 30 40 years ago, don't look for an exceptions look at the averages. Now go learn something..

Do you really need to be told the big picture of what not having a refrigerator would do to the nutrition and supplement elements of physical conditioning, lol, your quite narrow-minded for an old guy.

[PRINCEKOOL]

Haha you mind is too closed of from reality to fathom what Im saying, go through the records books of human sporting improvement and come back and tell me why the modern athlete out performs the athletes of 20 30 40 years ago, don't look for an exceptions look at the averages. Now go learn something..

Do you really need to be told the big picture of what not having a refrigerator would do to the nutrition and supplement elements of physical conditioning, lol, your quite narrow-minded for an old guy.

Your mind is closed from reality. You are deliberately ignoring the environment and conditions past athletes lived and competed under.

I have already taken you apart on this thread. I have already proven that it is not 100% factual that athletes have gotten better.

What has improved is technology and science. There have been some great physical feats of achievement by past athletes, that have not been duplicated even still today 'Even though athletes are training full-time, and with the aid of sports science'.

How come you have not quoted my last post prior to this? You don't quote it, because you know I have taken all of your points apart. You know that you can no longer claim that it is simple logic, that athletes have evolved.

I did say I was not coming back in this thread, but I just needed to state this etc.

It is not 100% factual that athletes have evolved, ESPECIALLY not in boxing. Where the participation levels are lower than past decades. For me the quality of athlete fundamentally has decreased. How else can you explain fighters who cannot stay in shape? Tyson Fury is big, but I would not describe him as a genetic marvel 'Even with all the sports science, he is struggles to turn up to fights in condition'.

The heavyweight division is a open class division. And due to this, it is the purest form of competition in the sport of boxing. All other weight divisions are negatively affected by day before weigh in's 'You have potentially 100's upon 100's of fighters, who fight in weight classes which is not their natural weight'. This is a new phenomenon, which in my opinion degrades the competition. Not only in the long term is weight draining, going to negatively impact the condition of a fighter 'But it also creates a illusion'.

Canelo Alvarez in reality going back in history would not be yo yoing up and down in weight. He would have to pick one division, and pretty much stay there.

Tyson Fury is not a genetic marvel; he is 270 + pounds because? He no longer wants to train a certain way. He is not a solid 270 pound. If Tyson Fury was to transport himself back to the 1930's, 40's, 50's 60's and so on. He would not be 270 + pounds, and he would not be the same fighter he is today. From what I can see, he relies on new school training methodologies 'And even still he is not in great condition'. For me this is proof that, these fighters you see today are not automatically better fighters than past generations.

You continue to ignore the differences in environment that athletes from past generations have to compete under, and how these variable's can affect the performances of the athletes. Why are you ignoring this variable? You are ignoring it, because you know it blows your case totally out of the water. This variable, which I have brought up in this thread completely invalidates ANYBODY who speaks as if it is 100% factual that today's athletes are superior to past athletes.

Jesse Owens was running 10.2/3 on mud and cinder tracks, wearing heavy leather spiked shoes, all awhile training and living off food stamps. And may I just add? At those times in America, Jesse Owens was not even recognize as a first class citizen. Mud and Cinder tracks in comparison to today's modern tracks, absorb more energy from the athletes sprinting motion 'There is a decrease in the ground reaction force'.

100m sprinters like hard surfaces; a hard surface is a faster surface. Even going back to the 1980's,all the astro-turf type tracks were slower than the newer tracks that started to get introduced in the 90's. In the 1991 Toyko World Championships, you had sprinters in their 30's breaking world records. Carl Lewis & Linford Christie set faster times, than anything they had produced during the 80's.

'I honestly do not think there are many top sprinters active today, who even with modern sport science and all the best supplements cold duplicate those performances of Jesse Owens if? They were subjected to compete under the exact same conditions'.

Below I am going to leave a video of Asada Powell, running the 100m on grass. Asafa Powell is the most prolific sub-10 100m sprinter of all-times meaning? He has run under sub-10 for the 100m more times, than any other athlete in history 'Total of 97 times'. Powell has a personal record of 9.72 seconds, and he is the former 100m World Record Holder 'And the third faster 100m sprinter of all-times'.

In the video below Asafa Powell is sprinting on grass, wearing modern shoes pretty much at the peak of his career. Powell recorded a time of 10.33 seconds. This race was run at spring time, this is a time of the year sprinters are gearing up for the summer season.

Jesse Owens in 1936 recorded his fastest ever time, of 10.2 seconds. Wearing heavy leather spiked shoes, and the performance he recorded was set on a mud-and cinder track.

Conclusions: It is not 100% factual that fighters or athletes of today are superior to athletes from the past. The reason why it is not 100% factual is because; athletes from different generations were competing in different environments. And due to this, nobody can accurately measure or compare athlete's abilities head to head. But we can speculate, and theorize.

For example: My theory is, that you can only really compare modern day fighters to past fighters if 'Those modern day fighters train with old school methodologies'. Ultimately these are the only modern day fighters who have proven that they could travel back in time, and still be the same fighters. Because they do not rely on protein shakes, supplement pills, and sport science training techniques. Their training predominantly consists of old school training methodologies, which have been developed throughout history from empirical investigation then application.