I've drawn the conclusion that JMM is REALLY the P4P Number 1.

[Doc Holliday]

I'd say they're both dead even now. I had JMM edging out Pac for P4P #1 in his victories over Casa and Diaz (compared to Pac's wins over D. Diaz and a dried-up DLH) since they last met. But I have to admit I was impressed with Pac's annihilation of Hatton at 140.

Unfortunately, Coach "Always looking for anything that will give Pac and edge" Roach and team Pac now seem to be waiting til JMM turns 40 before they face him again, if at all.

[shogunn]

I'd say they're both dead even now. I had JMM edging out Pac for P4P #1 in his victories over Casa and Diaz (compared to Pac's wins over D. Diaz and a dried-up DLH) since they last met. But I have to admit I was impressed with Pac's annihilation of Hatton at 140.

Unfortunately, Coach "Always looking for anything that will give Pac and edge" Roach and team Pac now seem to be waiting til JMM turns 40 before they face him again, if at all.

oook,...but why only judge the past 4 fights. Manny beating a non-shot barrera and morales 2x must account his edge over JMM, whose lost to Chris John and Manny. Not even at all

[Doc Holliday]

oook,...but why only judge the past 4 fights. Manny beating a non-shot barrera and morales 2x must account his edge over JMM, whose lost to Chris John and Manny. Not even at all

Man, I hate to go over this a million times, and Pacfans always bring up the same arguments. I just go by their fights since they last met cause they're so even, officially separated by only a point.

But if you want to count their losses, EM had a legitimate win over Pac, while JMM's loss to Chris John was home cookin'. JMM's loss to Manny is highly disputed.

And how bout' I throw in that JMM is so much older than Pac and still competing at this level. It's common knowledge that a fighter's reflexes are first to diminish as a fighter ages in the lower weight classes. That's got to count for something too.

[Addition]

Pac just got shipped down to number 3 on my list.

1. JMM
2. Hopkins
3. Pacman
4. Mayweather
5. Mosley
6. Cotto
7. Williams
8. Linares
9. Vic The Lobster
10. JuanMa

How is it you've gone from posting some decent stuff to this bull****?

[shogunn]

Man, I hate to go over this a million times, and Pacfans always bring up the same arguments. I just go by their fights since they last met cause they're so even, officially separated by only a point.

But if you want to count their losses, EM had a legitimate win over Pac, while JMM's loss to Chris John was home cookin'. JMM's loss to Manny is highly disputed.

And how bout' I throw in that JMM is so much older than Pac and still competing at this level. It's common knowledge that a fighter's reflexes are first to diminish as a fighter ages in the lower weight classes. That's got to count for something too.

in p4p rankings that doesnt mean ****. If you like to throw in the EM loss, you obviously overlooked that Manny beat Morales 2x. I dont know why everyone seems to forget this. Either way you look at it, Manny2 x > EM 1.

It seems all of JMMs losses are controversial and alot of his fans count them as wins.

Also head to head, Manny has 1 over JMM, as a WIN. thats what really accounts in a P4P ranking. Brutal wins over ODLH and Hatton should account for something, if JMM is going to get credit for winning a close match with Barrera, a green juan diaz, and an old casamayor.

There's no way JMM is over Manny in P4P.

[MANGLER]

Pac is #1 til he loses.

[Doc Holliday]

in p4p rankings that doesnt mean ****. If you like to throw in the EM loss, you obviously overlooked that Manny beat Morales 2x. I dont know why everyone seems to forget this. Either way you look at it, Manny2 x > EM 1.

It seems all of JMMs losses are controversial and alot of his fans count them as wins.

Also head to head, Manny has 1 over JMM, as a WIN. thats what really accounts in a P4P ranking. Brutal wins over ODLH and Hatton should account for something, if JMM is going to get credit for winning a close match with Barrera, a green juan diaz, and an old casamayor.

There's no way JMM is over Manny in P4P.

Easy there, don't get too upset over someone else's opinion. Most "official" lb 4 lb lists have Manny as #1, and they are what they are. But I disagree with them. My personal opinion is that they're even until they settle it in the rubber match.

Also, why wouldn't JMM's age count for something? lb 4 lb ratings are mythical considering all fighters can compete in the same weight class and are in their prime. I'd say JMM is a little past his prime and is competing evenly with Pac at his peak, so it does count for something.

And if you want to consider performances against other fighters, here you go:

I'll give Manny credit for the second win over EM, but not the third. EM clearly couldn't make 130 (which is why Roach insisted the fight should be at that weight) and was all dried up just like DLH was when he finally got in the ring. That match wasn't even competitive. Are you trying to say that Manny's blowout of EM in their last match was all because of Manny? Try to be objective here.

I'd rate JMM's win over Casa above Pac's win over D. Diaz. Though Casa was old, he was still bigger and still slick and dangerous. Why do you think Team Pac went after paper champ Diaz instead of Old Man Casa? Cause Manny has trouble with slick boxers. (Which is why I think Mayweather would embarrass Pac if they ever fought.)

I'd also rate JMM's win over J. Diaz above Pac's win over DLH. While I'd like to give Pac points for agreeing to face the much bigger and presumably stronger DLH, the truth is anyone will fight DLH on his terms for the money they'll make. As far as the actual fight itself, Manny beat a shell of DLH while JMM KO'd a naturally bigger, younger, and hungry fighter in J. Diaz.

Now Pac has destroyed Hatton, which I've already said is impressive. Not because of Hatton's skill, just based on fighting a naturally bigger fighter at his optimum weight and beating him so easily. However, JMM has taken on a greater challenge in facing Mayweather, so we'll see how that goes.

But like I said before, they've got to have a third match to settle it, it's the only way. And I hope it happens soon, though I'm not counting on it.

[shogunn]

Easy there, don't get too upset over someone else's opinion. Most "official" lb 4 lb lists have Manny as #1, and they are what they are. But I disagree with them. My personal opinion is that they're even until they settle it in the rubber match.

Also, why wouldn't JMM's age count for something? lb 4 lb ratings are mythical considering all fighters can compete in the same weight class and are in their prime. I'd say JMM is a little past his prime and is competing evenly with Pac at his peak, so it does count for something.
And if you want to consider performances against other fighters, here you go:

I'll give Manny credit for the second win over EM, but not the third. EM clearly couldn't make 130 (which is why Roach insisted the fight should be at that weight) and was all dried up just like DLH was when he finally got in the ring. That match wasn't even competitive. Are you trying to say that Manny's blowout of EM in their last match was all because of Manny? Try to be objective here.

I'd rate JMM's win over Casa above Pac's win over D. Diaz. Though Casa was old, he was still bigger and still slick and dangerous. Why do you think Team Pac went after paper champ Diaz instead of Old Man Casa? Cause Manny has trouble with slick boxers. (Which is why I think Mayweather would embarrass Pac if they ever fought.)

I'd also rate JMM's win over J. Diaz above Pac's win over DLH. While I'd like to give Pac points for agreeing to face the much bigger and presumably stronger DLH, the truth is anyone will fight DLH on his terms for the money they'll make. As far as the actual fight itself, Manny beat a shell of DLH while JMM KO'd a naturally bigger, younger, and hungry fighter in J. Diaz.

Now Pac has destroyed Hatton, which I've already said is impressive. Not because of Hatton's skill, just based on fighting a naturally bigger fighter at his optimum weight and beating him so easily. However, JMM has taken on a greater challenge in facing Mayweather, so we'll see how that goes.

But like I said before, they've got to have a third match to settle it, it's the only way. And I hope it happens soon, though I'm not counting on it.

Not in agreement with that at all. P4P is a straight up head to head ranking. You can argue JMM is peaking at a late age, so this is his boxing prime, rather than physical prime. I bet alot of people would not consider him a greater P4P just because he's older. That is a very weak attribute in a P4P ranking. That wouldnt be fair to younger fighters.

And putting opinions to rest, Manny has a WIN over JMM. That is a fact. That alone should put him over the top against JMM.


You're giving Manny credit for only 1 win against Morales. That's really a copout. Manny rid Morales in 3 rounds and suddenly and that's a point against his P4P ranking? shot or not Manny put him away in 3, a win is a win. Dont fault Manny for doing his job that night. I doubt JMM wouldve done the same, most likely it wouldve went to a decision.


You hyped up the Juan Diaz win way too much. Calling him younger, hungrier, even bigger...cmon. Dood looks fat for a 135r. Juan and David only had 1 loss prior to both meetings. Manny put David Diaz away without a scratch, JMM buckled against Juan Diaz. Its not like Juan was a young JLC, dont try to make him out to be.

Manny had no reason to duck a 37 year old Casamayor. He's fought JMM, morales, jumped 3 weight classes for odlh, hatton etc. People who bring up "slick black fighters" are just haters who try to nitpick at Manny. It's kinda funny really..



Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, Barrera, JMM > Juan Diaz, Casamayor, Barrera, Rocky Juarez, Loss to Manny.

[AssasinKing]

He beat Pac twice..moved up and got two knockouts and now has the balls to face Floyd Mayweather.

Pac lost to JMM twice in the eyes of MANNY and will only fight guys he know hell win at.

1. Manny won and drew when i watched the fights....
2. "MANNY" people agree pac won
3. Since when is cotto or mosley a guy he knows he will win against? and since when was morales, marquez, barrera, DLH, all people he KNEW he would beat...stop hating

[Doc Holliday]

Not in agreement with that at all. P4P is a straight up head to head ranking. You can argue JMM is peaking at a late age, so this is his boxing prime, rather than physical prime. I bet alot of people would not consider him a greater P4P just because he's older. That is a very weak attribute in a P4P ranking. That wouldnt be fair to younger fighters.

And putting opinions to rest, Manny has a WIN over JMM. That is a fact. That alone should put him over the top against JMM.


You're giving Manny credit for only 1 win against Morales. That's really a copout. Manny rid Morales in 3 rounds and suddenly and that's a point against his P4P ranking? shot or not Manny put him away in 3, a win is a win. Dont fault Manny for doing his job that night. I doubt JMM wouldve done the same, most likely it wouldve went to a decision.


You hyped up the Juan Diaz win way too much. Calling him younger, hungrier, even bigger...cmon. Dood looks fat for a 135r. Juan and David only had 1 loss prior to both meetings. Manny put David Diaz away without a scratch, JMM buckled against Juan Diaz. Its not like Juan was a young JLC, dont try to make him out to be.

Manny had no reason to duck a 37 year old Casamayor. He's fought JMM, morales, jumped 3 weight classes for odlh, hatton etc. People who bring up "slick black fighters" are just haters who try to nitpick at Manny. It's kinda funny really..



Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, Barrera, JMM > Juan Diaz, Casamayor, Barrera, Rocky Juarez, Loss to Manny.

You won't give JMM any credit because of his age, yet you discredit JMM's win over Casa because Casa is old? So which is it, does age matter or not? Also, part of the reason Hopkins is considered a lb 4 lb great is because he does so well at his age. Its not a weak lb 4 lb attribute at all.

And you're right, Pac has an official win. By a point. After 24 rounds. Are you're telling me you're satisfied with that to consider Pac the greater fighter? Wouldn't you rather see a dominant win in the rubber match? If not, I'd say you're the one that's copping out.

As far as how JMM would have done against a dried up EM, we'll never really know, and we can't go on plain speculation.

If you wanna go by their lone losses before they met JMM/Pac: Juan Diaz had a split decision loss to Nate Campbell, considered the best at 135 at the time. David Diaz was TKO'd by Kendall Holt. Come on, we both know Juan Diaz is the better fighter.

I've already explained why I think JMM's wins are greater than Pac's since they last met. But I still say we need the rubber match, and it needs to happen before JMM gets too old. Hopefully it happens right after JMM/May and Pac/Cotto