Muhammed Ali Over-rated?

[GJC]

The Ring, Feb. 1967:

“The kid has speed and there’s no one around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle if the ring. I’d see to it that Clay didn’t stay in ring center. No. He’d be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him. If he stayed on the ropes he would get hurt. Sooner or later he’d try to bounce off, when he did he would get hurt more. I’d press him, cut down his speed, and **** him around the ribs. I’d punish the body. “Kill the body and the head will die”, Chappie use to tell me. It figures. Sooner or later he’d forget about that face of his and he would start dropping that left hand like he did against Mildenberger and Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and fouled it up. I would work for it and wouldn’t reckon to miss when it arrived. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I am sure Joe Louis would have licked him.”

-Joe Louis

Louis had a better defense but he was known to drop his left as well, Schmelling exploited that.

[GJC]

Ali also did not seem as invincible during his prime years as people now often make him out to have been due to the Cleveland Williams fight. Even Ali himself said that people should not judge him based on his fight against Cleveland Williams because Williams was literally "shot".

Chuvalo and Mildenberger gave him a tough time. Folley made him look bad at times. The second Cooper fight was a bore.

True regarding Williams. People often overlook the Terrell fight and just think of the cruelty but Ali was on form that night.
Wouldn't count myself as an expert but I was an adult during Ali's prime so remember the time without the advantage of hindsight. No Ali was never invincible, no fighter is really, but throughout his career he generally did enough to win.
There was always doubts about his chin pre ban but he allayed those doubts post ban.

[GJC]

When you click the Reply button, the quoted text appears in your reply. Delete the bits you don't want to include.

Ah you need to click reply instead of quick reply then?

Thankyou very much, I shall hopefully ramble less now!

[TheGreatA]

Louis had a better defense but he was known to drop his left as well, Schmelling exploited that.

Louis had his flaws, he could be hit with the counter right and also had trouble dealing with the constant movement of Billy Conn, Bob Pastor and Jersey Joe Walcott.

It would be silly to count him out against Ali though since lesser fighters were able to trouble him.

True regarding Williams. People often overlook the Terrell fight and just think of the cruelty but Ali was on form that night.
Wouldn't count myself as an expert but I was an adult during Ali's prime so remember the time without the advantage of hindsight. No Ali was never invincible, no fighter is really, but throughout his career he generally did enough to win.
There was always doubts about his chin pre ban but he allayed those doubts post ban.

I think the Terrell fight is Ali's most impressive title defense considering how he dominated a very good opponent.

[GJC]

Louis had his flaws, he could be hit with the counter right and also had trouble dealing with the constant movement of Billy Conn, Bob Pastor and Jersey Joe Walcott.

It is that flaw that makes me think that Marciano would have a chance. I don't think that Marciano was a better fighter and do not count his victory over an old Louis as significant. But Marciano could absorb the punishment to get that right in so in 10 fights I don't think it would be 10-0 to Louis.

It would be silly to count him out against Ali though since lesser fighters were able to trouble him.

No you can never discount Louis against anybody. The Louis who beat Schmelling and Max Baer would have destroyed anyone who was less than 100%. Its as above when you get top notch fighters its never going to be 10-0 unless there is a real style mismatch. I do favour Ali in this one though.


I think the Terrell fight is Ali's most impressive title defense considering how he dominated a very good opponent.

I'm glad someone else agrees, Williams is always quoted as his peak fight and the Terrell fight is just talked about as Ali being overly cruel.

[GJC]

No still not quite there with the cutting and pasting thing, half my reply is mixed in with Manchine's quote! What am I missing gents?

[GJC]

[QUOTE=TheManchine;5136775]Louis had his flaws, he could be hit with the counter right and also had trouble dealing with the constant movement of Billy Conn, Bob Pastor and Jersey Joe Walcott.

It is that flaw that makes me think that Marciano would have a chance. I don't think that Marciano was a better fighter and do not count his victory over an old Louis as significant. But Marciano could absorb the punishment to get that right in so in 10 fights I don't think it would be 10-0 to Louis.

[Poet682006]

I'm glad someone else agrees, Williams is always quoted as his peak fight and the Terrell fight is just talked about as Ali being overly cruel.

There is a poster floating around here that swears Terrell was kicking Ali's butt all over the place. Not sure what fight HE was watching because it looked like a pretty dominat performanc by Ali to me.

Poet

[Double]

Let's not forget the man was robbed of the 3 best years of his boxing career

[Poet682006]

No still not quite there with the cutting and pasting thing, half my reply is mixed in with Manchine's quote! What am I missing gents?

Just make sure the quote begins with [Q UOTE=TheManchine;5136775] and ends with [/Q UOTE]

Poet