James Toney is overrated, Calzaghe would have schooled him

[oldgringo]

Well one that he could beat the Klitchskos....

People saying he would have easily beaten Calzaghe and Hopkins is a little over the top too. Or he has a better resume then Hopkins is questionable too.

People just view him as a lot better fighter because of the names he has on his resume. He never had that dominance Jones, Calzaghe, or Hopkins had

Yeah the first statement is ridiculous.

I agree with the, "he beats _____ easy" talk being silly too. Many people who say things like that are here to get a rise out of people. The resume part is questionable, but certainly that doesn't warrant talk of James being grossly overrated. James beat some excellent opponents and accomplished many things that Hopkins (and 98% of other fighters) have not. Both guys had great careers.

People view him as a great fighter because of some of the performances he gave in the ring, the top notch skills he was capable of displaying and his great resume. James has a few bad losses but so do many other great fighters. How many boxers can say that they fought and beat the best fighters available to them in 3 different weight classes? How many former Middleweights have competed even half as well as James has against Heavyweights? There was a time when James was regarded among the 2-3 best fighters in the world. He isn't an all style no substance type of guy. He had skills, smarts and toughness that would make him great in any era.

Dominance over your opposition is obviously a great thing. James was dominating at times, but didn't have the consistency of the other guys because of his lack of discipline. He also fought some guys that any of those other fighters would have very tough times with. McCallum and Nunn would have been very difficult fights for Jones, Calzaghe and Hopkins. Can you imagine a 23 year old Jones dominating Michael Nunn?> How about the Joe Calzaghe that fought Robin Reid?

I generally assess a fighter by looking at the three things I mentioned before. Resume, skill, performance. I think James had the great resume, he had the high level of skill, and he has given us some excellent performances throughout his career (McCallum I, Jirov, Nunn, Barkley, Littles, Holyfield).

[Pullcounter]

But he didn't.

Calzaghe fought top contenders who were good fighters. Middleweight, Super Middleweight, and Light Heavyweight all had underrated contenders due to the dominance of Hopkins, Calzaghe, and Jones.

but he could have

[warp1432]

Yeah the first statement is ridiculous.

I agree with the, "he beats _____ easy" talk being silly too. Many people who say things like that are here to get a rise out of people. The resume part is questionable, but certainly that doesn't warrant talk of James being grossly overrated. James beat some excellent opponents and accomplished many things that Hopkins (and 98% of other fighters) have not. Both guys had great careers.

People view him as a great fighter because of some of the performances he gave in the ring, the top notch skills he was capable of displaying and his great resume. James has a few bad losses but so do many other great fighters. How many boxers can say that they fought and beat the best fighters available to them in 3 different weight classes? How many former Middleweights have competed even half as well as James has against Heavyweights? There was a time when James was regarded among the 2-3 best fighters in the world. He isn't an all style no substance type of guy. He had skills, smarts and toughness that would make him great in any era.

The thing is, even though many fighters have a few bad losses, they still bounced back soon. They didn't wait 5 or so years like James Toney did to resurrect their career. I'm not denying Toney isn't a great fighter, but I feel he's a tad overrated.

Dominance over your opposition is obviously a great thing. James was dominating at times, but didn't have the consistency of the other guys because of his lack of discipline. He also fought some guys that any of those other fighters would have very tough times with. McCallum and Nunn would have been very difficult fights for Jones, Calzaghe and Hopkins. Can you imagine a 23 year old Jones dominating Michael Nunn?> How about the Joe Calzaghe that fought Robin Reid?

Jones didn't struggle with Johnson who Jones had trouble with. Jones in a rematch was a lot better against Griffin then Toney was (I'm aware some people thought Toney won though). McCallum and Nunn were good fighters, but I don't think Jones would have had the difficulty that James had. Same with Hopkins. Maybe Calzaghe would, but I don't know. Robin Reid wasn't that bad of a fighter either for the record.

I generally assess a fighter by looking at the three things I mentioned before. Resume, skill, performance. I think James had the great resume, he had the high level of skill, and he has given us some excellent performances throughout his career (McCallum I, Jirov, Nunn, Barkley, Littles, Holyfield).

I don't deny he has a good resume and a high skill level. I just think the inconsistency throughout his career makes him overrated by some.

[oldgringo]

The thing is, even though many fighters have a few bad losses, they still bounced back soon. They didn't wait 5 or so years like James Toney did to resurrect their career. I'm not denying Toney isn't a great fighter, but I feel he's a tad overrated.



Jones didn't struggle with Johnson who Jones had trouble with. Jones in a rematch was a lot better against Griffin then Toney was (I'm aware some people thought Toney won though). McCallum and Nunn were good fighters, but I don't think Jones would have had the difficulty that James had. Same with Hopkins. Maybe Calzaghe would, but I don't know. Robin Reid wasn't that bad of a fighter either for the record.



I don't deny he has a good resume and a high skill level. I just think the inconsistency throughout his career makes him overrated by some.

I don't blame you for holding the inconsistencies in his career against him. I think the career resurrection should boost him up in peoples minds, but we all think about it differently. He didn't just come back and get a lucky shot at a title because of his name after his days of mediocrity. He faced a number of Cruiserweight contenders and beat down the best fighter in the division to regain his position in the boxing world. That was a huge moment in his career in my opinion. If he were anything less than a great fighter he would have folded in the face of that pressure.

Jones would have had trouble with Michael Nunn, especially a younger middleweight Roy Jones. Nunn had a ton of talent. I'm not gonna preach about him though. I don't think it's unreasonable to picture Nunn giving Jones more trouble than any other fighter Jones faced in his career. I also don't think it's a forgone conclusion that Jones beats Nunn just because of how their careers turned out. Keep in mind Toney beat younger, better versions of McCallum and Johnson. I think the same is true for Calzaghe and Hopkins, especially in their early days (regarding McCallum/Nunn/Johnson). Robin Reid was a solid Super Middleweight.

[Derranged]

Calzaghe is overrated. And Im a fan of his, Im not a fan of Toney's at all. Prime for prime it would've been a good fight.

Second, Toney was robbed in the first fight against Peter.

[AztecWanker]

Why wouldn't Toney leave the comfort and protection of his home country, even once? All his fights were in the US.

He should have fought Eubank, Benn, and others, but he was afraid to leave his home judges (like in the Tiberi fight).

Toney called out Benn and Eubank on national television. Since they are across the pond, why didn't Joe Calzaghe fight them? Joe didn't fight Benn, Collins or Watson. After he beat Eubank, he fought Robin Reid, Omar Sheika and Charles Brewer. Toney fought Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, Iran Barkley and Roy Jones. There's no denying who fought the better opposition in their prime.

To those that call Toney overrated: I understand where you're coming from. Toney's inconsistency and weight problems are what damaged his career and the main things people **** on him for. When Toney was on, he was fucking on. I'm a sucker for hand speed, sound boxing skills and a tight defense, and who's better than a focused and in-shape James Toney? That's what made him my favorite fighter.

[warp1432]

I don't blame you for holding the inconsistencies in his career against him. I think the career resurrection should boost him up in peoples minds, but we all think about it differently. He didn't just come back and get a lucky shot at a title because of his name after his days of mediocrity. He faced a number of Cruiserweight contenders and beat down the best fighter in the division to regain his position in the boxing world. That was a huge moment in his career in my opinion. If he were anything less than a great fighter he would have folded in the face of that pressure.

Yeah that's true. At the same time, testing positive for roids really hurt him because it erases the ruiz win. Other then Holyfield, who you could argue was shot even then, he doesn't have really significant wins. But he was older anyway, so I guess you can't fault him for that. Especially since he started as a middleweight.

Jones would have had trouble with Michael Nunn, especially a younger middleweight Roy Jones. Nunn had a ton of talent. I'm not gonna preach about him though. I don't think it's unreasonable to picture Nunn giving Jones more trouble than any other fighter Jones faced in his career. I also don't think it's a forgone conclusion that Jones beats Nunn just because of how their careers turned out. Keep in mind Toney beat younger, better versions of McCallum and Johnson. I think the same is true for Calzaghe and Hopkins, especially in their early days (regarding McCallum/Nunn/Johnson). Robin Reid was a solid Super Middleweight.

Fair enough. I can't commentate on Nunn since I haven't seen much of him. Johnson was still a light heavyweight titlist and highly ranked when he moved up though after losing to Jackson, Castro twice.

[Ben_London.]

I wonder if Toney used steroids for his fight with Jirov?

[hishaam15]

Yall mustv forgot how good Toney was when he was in-shape and motivated...

[Fox McCloud]

Calzaghe would have beaten Toney at 168 I think, but a lot of the analysis in the opening post has nothing to do with it.

Any portion that includes the past-prime Toney at heavyweight is pretty useless to a discussion of prime for prime super middleweight matchup.

I think Calzaghe's nonstop pressure would confuse Toney and overwhelm him to the point of a decision.