The Top 20 Junior Middleweights of All-Time

[MatteoAlderson]

1) You didn't read the sentence correctly. Slow down. Jackson's prime was effectively over in 93; just Jackson. The mutual losses in part killed off what was a path designed to possibly lead them towards each other. King was building a Middle tourney, or so he kept claiming as early as Norris's fights with Blocker and Waters. Then Jackson got KO'd...then Norris. Never came together.

2) When could it have happened solely because Norris wanted it (and not saying he went out of his way for it)? Did King make a significant offer that Norris turned down? Or is this another magic assertion about the special power fighters have to make any fight, any time? To get King fighters, there had to be a huge money pot (there wasn't one for that rematch) or signing with King. Norris didn't do that until 92/93 and Jackson lost to McClellan shortly after Norris joined the stable.

If Norris had turned down or avoided a rematch in any serious way, I'd think Jackson would note it. Not a word: http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...ulian-jackson/

In an interview after Norris came back to fight Boudani for the title, his father stated that he saw Terry starting to slip around the Nick Rupa fight. Norris was still one of the better fighters in the world, but he had lost a little something after the Brown fight and the Santana debacles. By the way I was ringside at the Norris-Taylor.

[crold1]

In an interview after Norris came back to fight Boudani for the title, his father stated that he saw Terry starting to slip around the Nick Rupa fight. Norris was still one of the better fighters in the world, but he had lost a little something after the Brown fight and the Santana debacles. By the way I was ringside at the Norris-Taylor.

That's one of my all-time fave fights and how Norris's career was blown after that is just...ugh. He went from main eventing on HBO and drawing that crowd with Taylor to DKP PPV undercards against Joe Gatti. Bad move in retrospect.

[!! Shawn]

By the same token if you gave Thomas Hearns a world class chin he probably could have fought for the heavyweight title.

If you gave Tommy a world class chin, he would have been p4p the best fighter to ever live, and would be undefeated to this day. That combination of speed power and boxing ability combined with size and reach and a good chin would not be fair.

[Ch@mpBox@PR]

There's no blinding. It's math. Again, this is a body of work study. Mosley has faced five people who've held titles in and at 54 (Raul Marquez, DLH, Wright, Vargas, Mayorga). He's gone 4-2, 3 KO and 1 NC and all those fights count; Tito was 3-0 w/ 1 KO and 1 UD and 1 title defense, all of which he got points credit for. If you think Tito was better at 54, I wouldn't argue with you. He just didn't have a long enough stay or enough fights.

Tito 3-0 against JWW Champs or former champs.
He was 3-0-0(2KOs) He beated Reid for Reid Belt a one side fight, he denmolish, number 1 ranked contender thiam, and then he demolish the Division Champ and unifies the division. IF you think Mosley is higher because, he lost twice to Winky and got a NC against Marquez, then Im done with you!!!!!!

[Ch@mpBox@PR]

With all due respect, what has Wright or Kalule done to be ranked higher than McCallum in your opinion?

Winky has been a 3 time division champ. He has held the 4 major belts at 154, he was the lineal champ and the unified champ, plus he had 10 title defenses.

[!! Shawn]

Here's how Benitez's score came out versus Norris with numbers for fighters based on highest title total (i.e. two titles available = .5; lineal champ = 1) :

Title points = .5 for WBA

Benitez foes: Hope (.5), Santos (.33), Duran (.5), Hearns (1), Moore (.5), Hilton (.33)= 3.16 points

Points for wins: Hope (2 Points for KO; .5 for Qual. Win); Santos (1 pt. UD; .33 QW); Duran (1 pt. UD; .5 QW) = 5.33

Points for defenses = 1 for two WBA (.5) defenses

Points against = -3 for losses (Hearns, Moore, Hilton)

Points against for KO = -4

Total = 2.99 Points

Norris lost 8 for KO losses and 7 for divisional losses but the depth of resume was so strong it overcame it. I actually made a boo-boo on Norris' score; it should be .5 higher but I only gave him .25 for WBC titles where it should have been .75. He also got full lineal credit for defenses post Vaden based on the WBA title being held at the time by a Daniels Norris already blew out.

Thank god you are not a statistician, you would be awful. First off, Benitez lost too Moore because of a broken ankle. You can no more attribute that as a legitimate loss than you can attribute Pat Lawler as a legitimate loss for Duran.

Second off, you actually give credibility to alphabet soup belts. You give equal credit to a fight who picks off the weak champions as you give to a fighter who picks off a strong champion.

It is also not proper to deduct from a score for non-title fight losses, but at the same time, not giving credit for non-title fight wins.

[crold1]

Thank god you are not a statistician, you would be awful. First off, Benitez lost too Moore because of a broken ankle. You can no more attribute that as a legitimate loss than you can attribute Pat Lawler as a legitimate loss for Duran.

Second off, you actually give credibility to alphabet soup belts. You give equal credit to a fight who picks off the weak champions as you give to a fighter who picks off a strong champion.

It is also not proper to deduct from a score for non-title fight losses, but at the same time, not giving credit for non-title fight wins.

I don't give credibility to 'soup' belts as much as recognize their significance in the game. Fighters who capture multiple belts or win lineal titles get credit for that. They are a standard measuring stick and one fighters look to as much as their management. As to Moore-Benitez, it was clean punch that led to the ankle break. That's as legit as any a cut in my book, though freakishly flukish as well. The fight's on YouTube if anyone wants to see it just because...Benitez slipping shots on a broken ankle for most of a round is sick.

[joseph5620]

1) You didn't read the sentence correctly. Slow down. Jackson's prime was effectively over in 93; just Jackson. The mutual losses in part killed off what was a path designed to possibly lead them towards each other. King was building a Middle tourney, or so he kept claiming as early as Norris's fights with Blocker and Waters. Then Jackson got KO'd...then Norris. Never came together.

2) When could it have happened solely because Norris wanted it (and not saying he went out of his way for it)? Did King make a significant offer that Norris turned down? Or is this another magic assertion about the special power fighters have to make any fight, any time? To get King fighters, there had to be a huge money pot (there wasn't one for that rematch) or signing with King. Norris didn't do that until 92/93 and Jackson lost to McClellan shortly after Norris joined the stable.

If Norris had turned down or avoided a rematch in any serious way, I'd think Jackson would note it. Not a word: http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...ulian-jackson/

I didn't read it wrong at all. You clearly said Norris prime was over after his loss to Brown and used that as one reason the fight didn't happen. Did you not say that? I'll gladly repost it for you if you want me to. Norris was one of the top pound for pound fighters for a long time and because he lost to Jackson in a fight he was doing well, a rematch would have been attracftive. He had no problem rematching Brown.

[DuttyAlacrity]

Big ups to the man in my sig!!! I would have ranked him higher but i might be a bit biased
and Emile Griffith is also from the ****** Islands! YEA

[jvsnypes]

I agree with the top 5 of this list.Norris, although he didn't have a great chin, is one of my favorite fighters of all time.As good as he was, with a better trainer he would have been an all time great.I would have chose him over any fighter if he was more in control and disciplined in the ring.He had all the assets of Ray Leonard, but he lacked his ring smarts.That would cause him to get in those toe to toe brawles when it was unnecessary.He never seemed to understand when to just use his boxing ability.He would always seem to look for the knock out.But the times he did decide to box, he looked unbeatable.