The Top 20 Junior Middleweights of All-Time

[Steak]

Those losses ALL counted against Norris. He just had so many wins he overcomes it. It's the difference between having close to 50 fights in class and having around 14. I agree Benitez looked awesome for a short spell at 54; he ended his prime there (and at Middle getting roughed by Hamsho) and that's why I mentioned him before the list.

Norris ended up having about a 5 to 1 winning ratio at 154, Benitez had about a 4-1 winning ratio at 154.

for one of them to be #1 and another to not even be mentioned is pretty odd especially considering the level of opponents that Benitez fought.

[Walt Liquor]

Norris ended up having about a 5 to 1 winning ratio at 154, Benitez had about a 4-1 winning ratio at 154.

for one of them to be #1 and another to not even be mentioned is pretty odd especially considering the level of opponents that Benitez fought.

I'd like to hear who you think should be ranked ahead of Nino, if you think he is too high. Maybe, maybe behind Mazz but head to head. This, I believe is probably cliff's best top 10 of his other 8 lists. 10-20 are much more difficult positions to rank. I could see Benetiz ranked 15 cuz Vasquez lost a lit of his big fight. Wajima might be too high because his comp wasn't great and he got blown out on his way out.

[crold1]

Norris ended up having about a 5 to 1 winning ratio at 154, Benitez had about a 4-1 winning ratio at 154.

for one of them to be #1 and another to not even be mentioned is pretty odd especially considering the level of opponents that Benitez fought.

Here's how Benitez's score came out versus Norris with numbers for fighters based on highest title total (i.e. two titles available = .5; lineal champ = 1) :

Title points = .5 for WBA

Benitez foes: Hope (.5), Santos (.33), Duran (.5), Hearns (1), Moore (.5), Hilton (.33)= 3.16 points

Points for wins: Hope (2 Points for KO; .5 for Qual. Win); Santos (1 pt. UD; .33 QW); Duran (1 pt. UD; .5 QW) = 5.33

Points for defenses = 1 for two WBA (.5) defenses

Points against = -3 for losses (Hearns, Moore, Hilton)

Points against for KO = -4

Total = 2.99 Points

Norris lost 8 for KO losses and 7 for divisional losses but the depth of resume was so strong it overcame it. I actually made a boo-boo on Norris' score; it should be .5 higher but I only gave him .25 for WBC titles where it should have been .75. He also got full lineal credit for defenses post Vaden based on the WBA title being held at the time by a Daniels Norris already blew out.

[Roger Mellie]

I think I would agree with the top three.I think you could argue into the next century about the top two,and personally I would put Hearns at one,probably because of the merits of his victories over Benitez and Duran..he is also my favourite fighter,so that probably does it for me.That said,Norris was a fantastic fighter,who on his day looked about as good as it gets.One way to look at it i suppose,would be to wonder how the top three would have fared against each other on their best day,and that just seems to make it harder! lol

[crold1]

I think I would agree with the top three.I think you could argue into the next century about the top two,and personally I would put Hearns at one,probably because of the merits of his victories over Benitez and Duran..he is also my favourite fighter,so that probably does it for me.That said,Norris was a fantastic fighter,who on his day looked about as good as it gets.One way to look at it i suppose,would be to wonder how the top three would have fared against each other on their best day,and that just seems to make it harder! lol

Duran had one good day at 154 and otherwise looked so-so at the weight so outside of "It's Roberto Duran" the Benitez win is more impressive by a lot. Norris is a favorite of mine and he only got a bonus for one of his many wins against present/future titlists from other divisions at 54 (same as McCallum and Jackson got some extra credit). If I include them all, his score grows more.

[Roger Mellie]

Duran had one good day at 154 and otherwise looked so-so at the weight so outside of "It's Roberto Duran" the Benitez win is more impressive by a lot. Norris is a favorite of mine and he only got a bonus for one of his many wins against present/future titlists from other divisions at 54 (same as McCallum and Jackson got some extra credit). If I include them all, his score grows more.

Thats just it,I dont think you can break it down to a scoring formula if you have seen all these guys fight.One things for sure is that the division has been graced by some of the best fighters of all time.Norris probably did more at the weight than any of the others,but my abiding memory of the light middleweights is the right cross from Hearns that landed on Durans hairy chin.

[crold1]

Thats just it,I dont think you can break it down to a scoring formula if you have seen all these guys fight.One things for sure is that the division has been graced by some of the best fighters of all time.Norris probably did more at the weight than any of the others,but my abiding memory of the light middleweights is the right cross from Hearns that landed on Durans hairy chin.

Mine is McCallum starching Curry.

[IMDAZED]

Man, all these formulas prove is that, at best, there no different than another opinion and, at worse, are even more flawed than natural human thought.

The idea that Shane Mosley would be ranked higher than Felix Trinidad just because he hung aroung the division longer is ludicrous. The difference isn't like Calzaghe and Jones at 168, for instance. The difference is about four fights against far worse opposition. And the results against that opposition were worse too.

But hey, whatever's clever.

[Roger Mellie]

Mine is McCallum starching Curry.

That was a peach!

[Steak]

I'd like to hear who you think should be ranked ahead of Nino, if you think he is too high. Maybe, maybe behind Mazz but head to head. This, I believe is probably cliff's best top 10 of his other 8 lists. 10-20 are much more difficult positions to rank. I could see Benetiz ranked 15 cuz Vasquez lost a lit of his big fight. Wajima might be too high because his comp wasn't great and he got blown out on his way out.

I dont see why Julian Jackson shouldnt be rated higher than Nino. Nino was the lineal champ..which certainly means something...but most of his career was at Middleweight, and other than his wins over Sandro he didnt do much at 154.

Jackson on the other hand hand has a KO win over the number 1 rated Light Middleweight ever very near his prime. Norris won a title less than a year later, I believe. and the early 90s version of Norris was way better than the later 90s version.
not to mention his win over In Chul Baek is very underrated, as Baek won a title at 168 and beat legitimately good competition there.
The Buster Drayton win is pretty good too, and the only guy he lost to at 154 was McCallum. and a loss to McCallum is less embaressing than a loss to Kim, imo.