Who is the best currently active European boxer?

[The Hammer]

I'd have to say Arthur Abraham. I haven't seen any kind of weakness in his game thus far, the guy is a beast.

Do you mean best pure boxer, or best boxer overall?

Best boxer overall.

[Chase8400]

The HW division is not in better shape than SMW, and I'm pretty damn sure most would agree. I'm surprised you've said that given so many criticise the HW division as very poor, and SMW is often referred to as a lot deeper now.

As for top ten ranked opponents, again your indicating you've not read up on the top 10 opponents Kessler has fought to even be able to compare;

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=237830

Note he has also only lost to one of them, that being a p4p guy and best ever SMW. Can Wlad even come close to saying something like that? No.

Majority is also not 8 or so % Chase, which is the difference between Wlad and Kessler on that list. That is a minority.

Also this is a forum with subjective views.

Look at any more experienced, specialists sources in the industry, in terms of their p4p rankings Kessler beats Wlad and pretty much all of the credible ones.

This is exactly like saying say Chad Dawson is the best current American boxer.

He too, is clearly, significantly behind at least two other Americans in most credible p4p rankings.

The exact same applies with Wlad, Kessler and Abraham.

Wlad has faced top 10 ranked heavyweights in 6 of his last 10 fights that he has won. The other 4 were:
DaVarryl Williamson (Very dangerous contender and it was directly after getting KO'd by Brewster)
Eliseo Castillo (Undefeated and promising contender)
Lamon Brewster (Would be ranked top 10 if not for lacking activity)
Hasim Rahman (Used to be top 10 and was filling in for the #4 ranked HW at the time, Povetkin on short notice)

I challenge you to find another euro fighter who has faced better competition in their division in their last 10 fights. It sure isn't Abraham or Kessler if there is one.

As far as Dawson goes, no he is not currently the best fighter the US has and may not be the best in LHW, but I do think he could beat Bernard and would give Calzaghe a good fight even if he does not win.

Really though, the results of the thread have spoken for themselves and I didn't need to elaborate on this subject but there is a balance here between division accomplishment and overall ability/skill. I think Wlad is slightly ahead of Kessler in ability/skill and way ahead on division accomplishment.

I really think Kessler is an excellent fighter but he lives and dies based on his decent fight he gave Calzaghe for 6-7 rounds. That's just not enough to cut it I'm afraid. And I'm not the only one who feels that way either.

Take care Kris.

[Chase8400]

I'd have to say Arthur Abraham. I haven't seen any kind of weakness in his game thus far, the guy is a beast.

Do you mean best pure boxer, or best boxer overall?

No flaws? He got his jaw broken by a crude puncher like Miranda. I don't care what anyone says including the judges that night, Abraham took a beating and LOST that fight. That's a major flaw.

[Kris Silver]

Wlad has faced top 10 ranked heavyweights in 6 of his last 10 fights that he has won. The other 4 were:
DaVarryl Williamson (Very dangerous contender and it was directly after getting KO'd by Brewster)
Eliseo Castillo (Undefeated and promising contender)
Lamon Brewster (Would be ranked top 10 if not for lacking activity)
Hasim Rahman (Used to be top 10 and was filling in for the #4 ranked HW at the time, Povetkin on short notice)

I challenge you to find another euro fighter who has faced better competition in their division in their last 10 fights. It sure isn't Abraham or Kessler if there is one.

As far as Dawson goes, no he is not currently the best fighter the US has and may not be the best in LHW, but I do think he could beat Bernard and would give Calzaghe a good fight even if he does not win.

Really though, the results of the thread have spoken for themselves and I didn't need to elaborate on this subject but there is a balance here between division accomplishment and overall ability/skill. I think Wlad is slightly ahead of Kessler in ability/skill and way ahead on division accomplishment.

I really think Kessler is an excellent fighter but he lives and dies based on his decent fight he gave Calzaghe for 6-7 rounds. That's just not enough to cut it I'm afraid. And I'm not the only one who feels that way either.

Take care Kris.

Fundamental errors in this and your previous post.

-It's still abundantly clear after submitting it several times, that you have not even clicked the link I've gone to the effort of providing you, listing all the top 10 ranked wins Kessler has beaten.

-Your listing Wlad's past few fights and exaggerating the worth of the opponents I might add as if it far exceeds Kesslers history of beating such top 10 contendors, it does not. Furthermore it seems your listing the abc belt ranking of which there highest, when in another org or Ring it's much less. Plus the HW division is worse than HW, there's relative consensus on this to a degree.

-Wladimir has 3 knock out losses on his record. Kessler has no knock out losses, and only one loss by points to a p4p guy and best ever SMW. You still have simply not really addressed or shown you've factored this in as much as it should be.

-By admitting Dawson is not the best US fighter, your giving way to the legitimate and powerful point, that that's a fair comparison for why he is not the best US fighter, and also why Wlad is not the best Euro. Dawson is significantly behind Hopkins p4p wise alone from Hopkins. By the same merit, so is Wlad to Kessler or Abraham.

-The results of the poll are not conclusive because it's very close and closer I might add, infact there's now merely a 7% difference. The fact is the general boxing media, specialist sources all rank Kessler and Abraham above Wladimir, and as nearly breaking the top 10 p4p. That carries way more weight then a minority vote of some guys on a forum. If the public did all rankings, rankings would be all over the place.

[The Hammer]

According to the IBO statistics, Wlad has faced 21 "top 50" ranked opponents, and has a record of 18-3 against them.

http://www.iboboxing.com/rankings/heavy.html

Kessler has faced 14 "top 50" ranked opponents, and has a record of 13-1 against them. Kessler has faced some good opponents such as Beyer and Mundine, while Wlad has faced more, but has been stopped by three. Kessler has never been stopped, and has only one decision loss (to the best super middleweight of all time).

http://www.iboboxing.com/rankings/168.html

I like both these fighters, and can see both sides of this debate between Chase and Krisilver. But Kessler needs to become more active and fight some of the top people at 168. Wlad is just as talented as Kessler, but has shown vulnerability in those TKO losses.

[Kris Silver]

According to the IBO statistics, Wlad has faced 21 "top 50" ranked opponents, and has a record of 18-3 against them.

http://www.iboboxing.com/rankings/heavy.html

Kessler has faced 14 "top 50" ranked opponents, and has a record of 13-1 against them. Kessler has faced some good opponents such as Beyer and Mundine, while Wlad has faced more, but has been stopped by three. Kessler has never been stopped, and has only one decision loss (to the best super middleweight of all time).

http://www.iboboxing.com/rankings/168.html

I like both these fighters, and can see both sides of this debate between Chase and Krisilver. But Kessler needs to become more active and fight some of the top people at 168. Wlad is just as talented as Kessler, but has shown vulnerability in those TKO losses.

That's not a bad shout all in all. I'm not sure quite how credible those IBO rankings are compared with say Ring which I find are usually more so. Can anyone comment here broadly and/or on the particulars on these two guys?

Even on the above, the fact is it comes down to the HW division being poorer than SMW, and I also think Wlad relies on his tall stance to just be careful and jab all night keeping guys off him. That's not as all round talented and impressive as Kessler boxing wise for me. So even on the skills of the fighters I think it's dubious Wlad being better here, in-fact simply put Kessler is also furthermore, the better all round boxer.

I agree with your later points on the pro's and cons of both. But Kessler is not far from the p4p top 10 right now, if he managed to get in there on some lists I think the weight people place on it, would mean he'd go up hugely in peoples estimations.

Wlad is quite some way from doing such a thing.

[Davros?]

I thought so. Only 2 survivors werent there?

I'm very much into naval warfare and the Hood is one of the prettiest ships ever made. To me Schanhorst is no.1 though.

yeah i think it was 3 out of a crew of about 1,500, I couldn't image seeing a 42,000 ton armoured ship blowing in half it must have been an amazing site.

[Chase8400]

Fundamental errors in this and your previous post.

Kris, were beating this subject like a dead horse. Do you not realise that. It all comes down to opinion when it's all said and done. But, if you want to enter in a number ranking based on their competitions rank over the last 10 fights of each fighter in question, we can do that. The average ranked fighter based on Ring rankings, Wladimir will have a way higher ranking average than Kessler in their respective devisions.

Take note: I am NOT using rankings by a certain organization, only ring magazine rankings. Which are the only ones that even matter at all.

-It's still abundantly clear after submitting it several times, that you have not even clicked the link I've gone to the effort of providing you, listing all the top 10 ranked wins Kessler has beaten..

I'm glad you are realizing that now. I didn't have to pull up Kesslers record or anything you have provided. I'm already quite aware of the fighters he has faced and know that only 4 were ranked in the top 10 in the weight at the time Kessler faced them. Mundine, Beyer, Andrade, Calzaghe. Those are the only fighters worth mentioning so I didn't waste my time.

-Your listing Wlad's past few fights and exaggerating the worth of the opponents I might add as if it far exceeds Kesslers history of beating such top 10 contendors, it does not. Furthermore it seems your listing the abc belt ranking of which there highest, when in another org or Ring it's much less. Plus the HW division is worse than HW, there's relative consensus on this to a degree.

As I was saying, I used 'Ring' rankings only and not sanctioning bodies. I've followed both guys pretty closely over the last couple of years and am not just speaking out of my ass. (Followed Wlad since 2001)

You kinda lost me on the bold printed portion up there.

-Wladimir has 3 knock out losses on his record. Kessler has no knock out losses, and only one loss by points to a p4p guy and best ever SMW. You still have simply not really addressed or shown you've factored this in as much as it should be.

Losses in HW are allot different than losses @ any other weight as the punches are allot harder and the weight difference variates so much. That has nothing to do with how good a boxer is either. Wlad was dominating 2 of the fights he lost in and the 3rd he was simply caught off gaurd early. He would beat Sanders 9 out of ten times they would fight. He was not genuinely hurt in any of the 3 fights either. He was more exhausted and stunned than hurt.

-By admitting Dawson is not the best US fighter, your giving way to the legitimate and powerful point, that that's a fair comparison for why he is not the best US fighter, and also why Wlad is not the best Euro. Dawson is significantly behind Hopkins p4p wise alone from Hopkins. By the same merit, so is Wlad to Kessler or Abraham.

Yeap and It has nothing to do with this conversation or thread. I just responded to that part out of courtesy to you.

-The results of the poll are not conclusive because it's very close and closer I might add, infact there's now merely a 7% difference. The fact is the general boxing media, specialist sources all rank Kessler and Abraham above Wladimir, and as nearly breaking the top 10 p4p. That carries way more weight then a minority vote of some guys on a forum. If the public did all rankings, rankings would be all over the place.

The results will be conclusive when the poll ends. For now though, Wladimir owns the top spot. That favors my view moreso than yours, does it not? I'm kinda suprised you have debated the this so much. But then when I reflect on who your favorite fighter is, it makes perfect sense.

Take Care Kris, I'll possibly revisit this subject when the poll is complete. For now I'll let the dead horse be alone.

[javelin_fangs]

I'm the only one to vote for Adamek? I guess being a two division champion doesn't count for much when you've never been on HBO.

[The Hammer]

I'm the only one to vote for Adamek? I guess being a two division champion doesn't count for much when you've never been on HBO.

But almost everyone would agree Adamek is one of the best, and with some successful title defenses and/or cruiserweight title unification, he will be even more highly regarded.